Are Non-Christians Saved?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
#1. NO Religion has taken the holy text of ANOTHER religion CHANGED it and then delcared the ALTERED version to be the original!!

#5. We have NO example today of Jews OR Christians silencing their OWN opposition to rabid sects within them that advocate violence the WAY that modern Islam is bound and gagged when it comes to speaking out against the cultic misdeeds of ITS OWN members and sects.

Amity

On #1: Yes, Buddhism is an adapted form of Hinduism.

The initial evangelists for Christianity were all jews and all used the OT as their "text of scripture" that is not the same thing as "editing the text of the Jews and then claiming that some other version is the REAL one".

I am aware that the Buddhists are simply an offshoot of Hinduism - but I am not aware of Budhhists making changes to any Hindu text or holy book and saying that the Hindus are using the wrong version.

The point remains.

Bob said --

#5. We have NO example today of Jews OR Christians silencing their OWN opposition to rabid sects within them that advocate violence the WAY that modern Islam is bound and gagged when it comes to speaking out against the cultic misdeeds of ITS OWN members and sects.

Amity

#5: i guess it just depends on which grouping within Islam you choose to view as "the REAL Islam." Many Christians throughout history have been pretty far out there, too.

You are missing the point. Christians on this very board decry loudly the acts of the Catholic church in the dark ages. And when a Jim Jones group springs up - Christians denounce that loudly too as well. Whe violent groups rise up and commit criminal acts other Christian groups denounce them very loudly.

IF it were true that the violent Islamic groups were the great minority that some Christians want to think of them as - then you would be seeing loud demonstrations against them in fully Islamic countries -- that MATCH the same loud demonstration in those SAME countries that are IN FAVOR OF muslim criminals like Saddam that brutalize muslims. Instead of that we only see muslim demonstrations in other Muslim countries IN FAVOR of monsters like Saddam EVEN though Saddam was primarily known for his brutality AGAINST other Muslims!!

And the reason has to do with the "culture of hate" that they were building in their religion. The idea that no matter how monsterous an Islamic leader was -- to be attacked by non-Muslims is a call for warring parties within Islam to unite in common hatred. Something that makes no sense at all to the Christian nations.

 

[amity]

I don't think you have that right. We have numerous examples (acts 13 being one) in the NT and in the Gospels of Romans who worshipped the one true God and gentiles of other stripes worshipping the one true God.

Your assumption that you had to be an idol worshipper if you are not a blood-Jew is not held up in scripture.

But certainly as a believer in the one true God Cornelius is still neither Christian NOR an in-the-flesh Jew.

So the question remains - what about Jews whom everyone today would argue are not Christians.



Indeed. I think the King of Salem the Priest of God is one.

But still it only gets them to the same religion as the Jews in terms of belief "at best" so the question remains - are Jews saved?

Okay, now we are talking.

Cornelius had to subscribe to the state religion of Rome in order to be a centurion. I think to state that he was a worshipping only of the "unknown god" is a bit of a stretch not supported by scripture. He was an adherent of the state religion, else not a centurion. How over time his beliefs evolved is the interesting question.

About the OT figures, and there are a lot, yes, though nominally something else, they did know the one true God. How? God must have taught them Himself. They did not have access to God's word.

I myself as fully persuaded that there are saved children of God among the Jews, as well as among every other religious grouping, so no argument there.

 

[amity]

You are missing the point. Christians on this very board decry loudly the acts of the Catholic church in the dark ages. And when a Jim Jones group springs up - Christians denounce that loudly too as well. Whe violent groups rise up and commit criminal acts other Christian groups denounce them very loudly.

So do Muslims decry acts of violence. We are "People of the Book" and they view us as worshippers of the true God. Christians and Jews have always had a privileged and protected status in Muslim law. Some jerks have abrogated it throughout history, but not too many. If you want to find out more, read a GOOD history book, not the propaganda trash that is out to make us hate one another. This demonizing of the alleged "enemy" is no different than what has been done in every war ever fought. It serves someone's carnal agenda, but it does NOT serve Christ.

Look, *someone* is trying to induce us and our children pick up a gun and go and blow someone else's brains out for the sake of a few barrelsfull of oil. And it sounds like some of us are quite willing to do so. Let's wise up and adopt the attitude that the BIBLE says we must have. LOVE them for Christ's sake. We need to refuse to hate people and find some other way to achieve legitimate objectives. To pass this carnal mindset off as religion is truly horrific. Let's do what the Bible says for once.

This is SOOO off-topic I am just not going to discuss Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Catholics in this thread anymore at all. Start a new hate thread. Say whatever your consciences will permit.

 

[DHK]

Okay, now we are talking.

Cornelius had to subscribe to the state religion of Rome in order to be a centurion. I think to state that he was a worshipping only of the "unknown god" is a bit of a stretch not supported by scripture. He was an adherent of the state religion, else not a centurion. How over time his beliefs evolved is the interesting question.

Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
--Cornelius was an uncircumcised Gentile proselyte to the Jewish faith. As such he had much light about the one true God--Jehovah. He gave much alms to the people--the Jewish people. He was as one of them. He prayed to God (Jehovah) always. It was Jehovah that answered his prayers and sent to him Peter to show him the way of salvation. This was no coincidence. Cornelius had already received much of the light of the Word of God.

About the OT figures, and there are a lot, yes, though nominally something else, they did know the one true God. How? God must have taught them Himself. They did not have access to God's word.

I myself as fully persuaded that there are saved children of God among the Jews, as well as among every other religious grouping, so no argument there.

Mention those that did not have access to the Word of God or the testimony of God in some way.
How did Rahab the harlot get saved?

Joshua 2:10-11 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
--Look at that great testimony of Rahab in verse 11. The Lord your God, he is God in heaven above..." She testifies of who Jehovah is. She believed on Him because of what she heard, the testimony of the God of the Israelites. God called out a nation to himself to declare his glory. And that is what happened.

He sent Jonah to Ninevah.
Naomi went Moab, and Ruth converted, and believed on Jehovah.
Throughout the OT we have many Gentiles that believed because of the testimony of Israel or even just one of the Israelites. Always were they saved through the message or the testimony of a believer.

 

[DHK]

LOVE them for Christ's sake. We need to refuse to hate people

Has anyone said anything here about hating people.
We do love them for Christ's sake. We also need to know the enemy. The enemy is in the religion, its doctrines, beliefs, agenda. The people need salvation. The religion is of Satan and is sending people to Hell. The doctrines come from the pit of hell. It is one of the most devilish religions on the face of the world. Yes, love the people. Get the gospel to them. But know the enemy. Beware of the leaven of the _______(in this case Islam). Apply Scripture. It is an Anti-Christ religion.

 

[amity]

Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
--Cornelius was an uncircumcised Gentile proselyte to the Jewish faith. As such he had much light about the one true God--Jehovah. He gave much alms to the people--the Jewish people. He was as one of them. He prayed to God (Jehovah) always. It was Jehovah that answered his prayers and sent to him Peter to show him the way of salvation. This was no coincidence. Cornelius had already received much of the light of the Word of God.

--Look at that great testimony of Rahab in verse 11. The Lord your God, he is God in heaven above..." She testifies of who Jehovah is. She believed on Him because of what she heard, the testimony of the God of the Israelites. God called out a nation to himself to declare his glory. And that is what happened.

The Bible does not say Cornelius was a proselyte. He could not have been both a proselyte and a centurion.
Ruth believed directly due to her association with Naomi and her son, it seems. Not the same thing.

Rahab is a good case in point, though.

Also consider Melchisedec. He was not a Jew, and yet was type of Christ as we are told in the N.T. What other monotheistic people were out there at that time that could have preached God's word to him?

 

[canadyjd]

The Bible does not say Cornelius was a proselyte. He could not have been both a proselyte and a centurion.

You are simply wrong here. The bible says Cornelius was "euseBas" or devout, godly, pious; which refers to worshipping the one true God. And that he was "god-fearing" which is the word Jews used to refer to Gentile converts. There was even a "court of the Gentiles" at the temple so these converts could bring their sacrifices.

Your assumption that he could not be a proselyte and a centurion at the same time is not supported by the text. He may have been forced to be a secret worshipper, but he most certainly was a worshipper of the one true God.

peace to youraying:

 

[amity]

Your assumption that he could not be a proselyte and a centurion at the same time is not supported by the text. He may have been forced to be a secret worshipper, but he most certainly was a worshipper of the one true God.

It is supported by the meaning of the word "centurion." Yes, he was evidently God-fearing. How did he get that way? Before Peter came to him, that is...

At point A he is a pagan.
At point B he is "God-fearing."

Your contention that he is a Jewish proselyte is unsupported by scripture, it looks to me.

There are many others from OT, too. God has His ways of dealing with people.

 

[DHK]

It is supported by the meaning of the word "centurion." Yes, he was evidently God-fearing. How did he get that way? Before Peter came to him, that is...

Centurion does not equate to pagan.
Centurion usually (but not always) means that he was Roman. But Paul was a Roman also. It simply means that he was born as a Roman citizen. It has absolutely nothing to do with being a pagan. Many of the Christians were Romans--like the "saints at Rome."

At point A he is a pagan.

No evidence. The Bible records no such thing. It records that he was devout and God-fearing.

At point B he is "God-fearing."

Yes, He was a devout Gentile proselyte to the Jewish religion.

Your contention that he is a Jewish proselyte is unsupported by scripture, it looks to me.

No, the word "devout" infers that he was a proselyte. The entire context is in a Jewish setting. He was one that feared Jehovah. He gave alms to the Jewish community. He did as the Jews did. This all gives credence to him being a proselyte.

There are many others from OT, too. God has His ways of dealing with people.

You need to list them. They all had the Word of God, or the testimony of the Israelites in some way presented to them. God does not reveal himself in a vacuum.

 

[amity]

Centurion does not equate to pagan.

I am not making myself clear on this point, I admit. To be a centurion one had to subscribe to the state religion.

On the rest, I see this as a specifically non-Jewish context. Else Peter's dream of all the different types of animals in a net, and his answer of "unclean" makes no sense. The man is obviously a gentile, and not a convert. His significance in the Bible is specifically as the first gentile convert.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

We should quit arguing over who is saved and who is not saved.

That is God's business and He admonished us to be a witness - not to question who is saved and who is not saved.

The Muslims would like to kill all the true Christians. They do not believe in the same Jesus we do.

Remember Hitler? He killed thousands of Jews - all in the name of God...

And as far as the present war that was mentioned. War is not always ungodly. God, Himself, ordered nations to go to war.

 

[DHK]

I am not making myself clear on this point, I admit. To be a centurion one had to subscribe to the state religion.

Not true. What then happened to the centurion who believed when at the foot of the cross? Do you think that he was automatically demoted? Did the jailors (Acts 16:30ff) have the same requirement to live up to?

On the rest, I see this as a specifically non-Jewish context. Else Peter's dream of all the different types of animals in a net, and his answer of "unclean" makes no sense. The man is obviously a gentile, and not a convert. His significance in the Bible is specifically as the first gentile convert.

Gentiles were permitted in the outer court of the Temple. There was an area that was sectioned off for them. They were not permitted into the inner court. Technically, he was not really the first Gentile convert; in fact far from it.
First, in Acts 8, Peter went to Samaria, preached there, and a great number believed on the Lord. These were Samaritans, not Jews.
Then in the latter half of chapter 8, the Spirit of the Lord told Philip to go join himself with the chariot in the desert. He met the Ethiopian Eunuch reading from the book of Isaiah, and began with the same Scripture and preached unto him Jesus. The Ethiopian Eunuch was saved and baptized before he reached Ethiopia. He was an Ethiopian. He was not a Jew. He was a proselyte to the Jewish religion.

The difference in these cases was a social one. The Samaritans were in Samaria. The eunuch was off in Ethiopia. But when Cornelius was about to be saved he was not about to move to Africa or even Samaria. He would remain right there. He, of a necessity, would have to be invited into the Christian community which up to that time was composed of Jewish Christians. This was a matter of social interaction.
Previously for any Jew to enter a Gentile's home it was anathema. They treated the Gentiles like dirt. They were unclean. They passed by on the other side (parable of the good Samaritan). All Gentiles were unclean. The Jews did not want anything to do with them. Thus Peter receives the vision of the sheet containing unclean animals. It has a dual purpose--declaring that all animals are clean to eat; but especially that God is no respector of persons, and that Peter should not be either.

Cornelius was a proselyte just like the Ethiopian was. The more conservative and orthodox Jews would avoid him. Liberal Jews would not have that same attitude. Peter was one that was very biased. He had to be convinced. And so he was, and God sent messengers to him, whom he went with and preached the gospel to Cornelius and his household.
The evidence of their salvation was apparent also.

 

[beloved57]

Are non christians saved ?

A non christian may be saved if they are one of Gods elect ! A person is not saved by or because of what they believe ! Let me say it again, a person is not saved because of what they believe or not believe. No, a person is saved by the redemptive death of christ, and thats it. All the elect of God are saved/ healed by virtue of the christ death ! This is clearly stated in isa 53

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Thats right folks its a done deal ! Now, here is where the confusion needs to be made plain. Those of us who are saved , will be converted from our idolatry and false religon. Until we are converted , we are not christians / believers.

The apostle paul like all the church of christ, was saved before he believed the gospel, notice in

gal 1 15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,


Jeremiah too 1 5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Now, it must be important to know that, yes, these men were called to special offices, but nevertheless, they are sinful people saved by the grace of God, paul was saved for an example as to how God saves sinners, that is His elect.

1 tim 1 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting

There you have it, his salvation conversion is a pattern !

But what happened on the road to damascus ? Paul was conveted to christianinty by a miracle of grace working effectually with the power of christ ! Notice

eph 3 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Paul was made a minister/ christian/believer how ? By the effectual working of Gods power, that is how an elect person is converted to chrisianity, by the effectual working of Gods power.

So, a person may be saved right now, but just not converted. But when will we know that they are conveted ? By their testimony, by them now believing the truth of the gospel. Paul recieved fellowship with the others only after they percieved his testimony was now of God. Notice

gal 2

7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Folks this is extremely important. Those who believe in the true gospel should not extend fellowship with those who we cannot percieve the grace of God in their testimony of the gospel !

I know many will disagree, but maybe God has an elect , who will percieve the grace of God in this post....:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

A non christian may be saved if they are one of Gods elect ! A person is not saved by or because of what they believe ! Let me say it again, a person is not saved because of what they believe or not believe. No, a person is saved by the redemptive death of christ, and thats it. All the elect of God are saved/ healed by virtue of the christ death ! This is clearly stated in isa 53

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Thats right folks its a done deal ! Now, here is where the confusion needs to be made plain. Those of us who are saved , will be converted from our idolatry and false religon. Until we are converted , we are not christians / believers.

The apostle paul like all the church of christ, was saved before he believed the gospel, notice in

gal 1 15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Paul was saved when he called upon the name of the Lord. Simply because the Lord knew about it before hand does not mean that the apostle Paul was saved before he was born. That is plain absurd. It says that God separated him, not saved him. Learn the difference. God had a plan for his life, but Paul still had to make the choice. I have plans for my children. But they have to make their own decisions. I can't force them. The difference between me and God in this area is that God knows before hand (since he is omniscient) what his children will decide and how they will turn out. I don't have that knowledge. A person is saved when, he, of his own volition, chooses to accept the sacrifice that Christ provided for him on the cross. No one forces him to do so.

Election has nothing to do with it.

 

[Amy.G]

A non christian may be saved if they are one of Gods elect !

What??? There is no such thing as a saved non-Christian. Faith in the finished work of Christ is necessary for salvation.

Romans 1:16-17 (New King James Version)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

 

[amity]

What??? There is no such thing as a saved non-Christian. Faith in the finished work of Christ is necessary for salvation.

Romans 1:16-17 (New King James Version)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Oh-oh, Amy G., here we go again! Firstly, Jews do not have faith in the finished work of Christ, yet Romans 1:16 makes clear that at least some are included in salvation's plan.

Secondly... oh, well, never mind.

YES, Beloved_57. We can be a headhunter in the remotest part of the jungle who has never seen a Christian, and worships rocks and trees, not knowing any better, and Christ's love can reach us there....

 

[canadyjd]

A non christian may be saved if they are one of Gods elect ! A person is not saved by or because of what they believe ! Let me say it again, a person is not saved because of what they believe or not believe. No, a person is saved by the redemptive death of christ, and thats it. All the elect of God are saved/ healed by virtue of the christ death ! This is clearly stated in isa 53

Are you saying that faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation?

peace to youraying:

 

[beloved57]

Are you saying that faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation?

peace to youraying:

Yes and no. Let me explain, It is not necesary in order to get saved or cause salvation ! But it is necessary to come into the experiential knowledge of it. God gives His elect faith to know that they have salvation !

Notice what zach says in lk 1

77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

God gives His elect faith to know the things that have been freely given us [ as salvation is a free gift see eph 2 8]

1 cor 2

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Faith is a fruit of the spirit of God

gal 5 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[canadyjd]

Yes and no. Let me explain, It is not necesary in order to get saved or cause salvation ! But it is necessary to come into the experiential knowledge of it. God gives His elect faith to know that they have salvation !

You can't say "Yes and no". Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Is faith in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, Yes or no?

You appear to be saying No. You appear to be saying the elect are saved, prior to faith, but when we receive Holy Spirit, we become aware of the salvation that we already had. Is that what you are saying?

peace to youraying:

 

[amity]

Are you saying that faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation?

Beloved can answer for him/herself of course, but I would like to answer, too. Calling is an inward experience, not just the gospel call. Response to the inward experience of the Spirit is faith, not just an outward subscription to a particular belief system. In fact, the bible says that gospel must be "mixed with faith" to "profit." Merely believing intellectually that Christianity is valid is not enough. There must be that personal experience of Christ, that is the essential thing. We say "I believe in Christ as my personal Savior" or "based on a personal testimony of experience" and throw these terms around and yet seem sometimes to have forgotten what they really signify. That experience of Christ can come to anyone.