Are revelation and communication the same?

It's a revelation if, for the person to whom it was communicated, it was something previously hidden. Everyone else in the entire world may already know this thing, but if that person did not, then when it is revealed to him, it is a revelation.

In addition, if God reveals to me, for instance, that Barry is the man I was to marry, then that revelation is most certainly NOT for the whole world, but was personal to me! And, by the way, we will have been most wonderfully and happily married for six years this coming Saturday!

 

John, I think you and Helen are both correct. There is a technical or theological understanding to "revelation" and there is the common English usage of the word, "reveal or revelation".

God can reveal to me the call to ministry, and it is both a revelation to me, but not a revelation of God, as are the scriptures.

Cheers,

Jim

 

There are different types of revelation. There is special or direct revelation, which is the Bible. There is general or universal revelation, which all people have. There is a need to distinguish between illumination and revelation. When you read the Bible, the Scripture is revealed knowledge of God, that you otherwise would not have known. The Spirit has to illuminate even the Bible in order for you to understand it's truth.

 

I don't have time to get in deep here, so please forgive me.

Typically, I would answer yes. Depending on how technical you get with it, some limit revelation to inscripturation, and rightly so for this age, due to the closing of the canon and the end of special revelation. God revealed to Moses that he should go to Egypt (Exod 3). It is hard to argue that it is not "revelation," and it is harder to argue that "it is universal truth for all."

General revelation is also communication about God.

Your final question about "leading," is ... well, somewhat misleading. I have no issue with saying that "God leads people" to do certain things. My issue is with the form that the "leading" takes.

 

I think your truth for all test is a good one. General revelation is truth available to all. Special revelation is not known by all but is applicable to all. However, in terms of God directly communicating with an individual, I do not think there is anything wrong with saying that God revealed something to me about me. What is concerning is when people claim that God revealed something to them about someone else. This gets into the realm of the office of the prophet. I am an open but cautious cessationist, if that is category. Therefore the whole notion of the apostolic or prophetic office has ceased. The notion of prophecy in the NT is more a matter of speaking the truth or relaying biblical truth or sharing a testimony or an admonishing. We can know that something will happen because the Scriptures tell us as much. So, I guess what I am opening up for your consideration, is the possibility that this discussion is more a matter of whether someone is a cessationist or one who still thinks that all the gifts and offices are still in place. I can see someone being an orthodox charismatic who would feel very comfortable with the notion of modern revelation due to the prophet office. However, in my experience someone can be sincere and be sincerely wrong. I would say that God revealing something about yourself is conviction through the Holy Spirit, and that anyone who claims to have secret knowledge about someone else has either one of two things: been sorely mistaken or the daunting task of telling someone something that they probably do not want to hear, and probably no one would believe if you did.

 

Revelation and Wisdom

I think that I track with what you are saying, John of Japan. Revelation is objective and unchanging. While personal leading or guidance is based upon God's objective revelation, God's revelation is not specific enough to point out to me specific decisions in life. Making correct decisions is a question of wisdom.

For instance, if I need a car, there are two models I could follow for deciding what to buy.

Model one is a "revelation" model in which I pray for a car and then go look at cars until I get this urge or feeling that I take to be from the Lord. Then I buy the car based upon my gut feeling.

Model two is a wisdom model in which I have no direct word from God as to what car I should purchase. I acknowledge biblical principles in my decision making (for instance, am I lusting after a car and making it an idol; or am I being a good steward of my resources in the amount of debt I am taking on), but the choice of a car involves asking God for wisdom and insight to make a wise decison, then shopping, comparing, researching, testing, and asking people who know more about cars than I do for advice. Then I buy a car based upon facts that I have gathered.

I think that model one is a very poor model for decision making. We can be deluded by our own feelings and urges into a very unwise move. In fact, thinking that we can make major decisions based upon a private revelation from God is really a form of spiritual pride.

The second model is one in which we humble ourselves before that Lord first, saying "I freely admit that I do not know what is best for myself." Then we seek wisdom from godly people around us who are not only spiritual people, but who are experienced and wise in earthly matters. Admitting that we do not know everything and humbly asking for help is a godly exercise that is fitting for major and minor decisions of life. And it is an exercise in wisdom.

 

I always like to preface any statement that I make in reference to discerning the Lord's will with "To the best of my ability as far as I am able to discern, I believe that it is the Lord's will..." I would not go so far as to say that there are never any doubts however. I think that some of the most important decisions I have made were often void of certitude. At the end of the day, I would claim Romans 8:28. If you believe that every decision you make regarding a calling is crystal clear that could be a form of existentialism. The last church I served before this one was not that way at all. From the start of the process to the time I left the church, I never felt like I wanted to be there. I prayed up and until I answered the call for another option. In the end it was obvious to me that God wanted me to go, but I was not at all certain about it. We do not serve out of preference but out of obedience. I am not saying that God is confusing but sometimes this world is confusing and we live in a fallen world that suffers from great confusion. When going through the process of looking for a church or for a pastor I recommend that churches and pastors try to minimize the depth of the process until they are connected with someone who is willing to prayerfully consider just the one position. It would not be wise to bring in two pastors to preach in view of a call, nor would it be wise to preach at two different churches in view of a call. Yet it has been done before. Discerning the Lord's will is a mystery that only he can uncover, but it helps to minimize the human factor for sure. If someone is uncertain about a discision to go into missions it can help to take steps towards that interest until you have a check in your spirit or a peace. I know if God makes it crystal clear then you need to go, but even if you are not sure, that is not a sign that God is not in it. It could be your flesh trying to keep you from making that move. I basically agree with you but I do not always think it is so clear per se as you make it sound.

 

I will buy that... I appreciate your good humor.:laugh:

 

So people are universally called to go to Egypt and lead Israel out? I don’t think you mean that. So how is God’s call to Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt in any sense universal?

I believe that there is truth in the call that teaches us all, but the revelation to Moses to go to Egypt was not universal.

I completely disagree. An example for our learning does not mean that we can have the same type of things. Otherwise, we would still be believing in direct revelation (which if you are not a cessationist you can believe, and inherit the numerous problems that come with it). I believe you are a cessationist, and thus, would have to say we do not have the type of calls that people in the Bible had.

I think most would say we cannot learn “specific truths” through general revelation, since it is not prepositional. Specific truth must be carried in propositions.

I disagree because I don’t see the great disjunction between revelation and communication. When God communicates, he is revealing something about himself and his will. When revelation takes place, he is communicating something about himself and his will. I believe all of that takes place in Scripture. I do believe God arranges the circumstances of our lives to guide us, but that is an entirely different matter.

To the point that spawned this discussion, when someone says they have “peace,” they generally are talking about something extra-biblical that comes directly from God to communicate his will to them. And that is what I have a problem with.

 

You are welcome to critique anyone's views, so long as we can inturn do the same.

I did not take issue with anything you had said until I go to the above.

Do you recognize a distinction in revelation and illumination?

True but not all communication is Special Revelation. Everything that Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy is not Scripture. There are other letters to the church in Corinthian that were not considered canonical. So I think it is helpful to distinguish between Special Revelation and illumination, in order to preserve this important difference in terms of authority. God's illuminations are authoritative to those whom he communicates. God's revelations are authoritative for all mankind.

This is called illumination, and it does not have to be extra-biblical. Why do you presuppose that guidance from the Holy Spirit is extra-biblical? I would think it would be a key aspect of every Christians daily experience. 1 John says you have need of no one to teach you because you have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God communicates with his children. So why do you have a problem with someone wanting a peace from God in order to make a decision?

 

I've been reading the posts here and am not sure what to think, but Pastor Larry, what do you think of this:

The revelation to Moses was not universal in the sense it was given to everyone, but it was universal in the sense that this revelation to Moses is revealed for everyone through being recorded in the OT. So it becomes a revelation for all who read the Torah.

What do you think?