Are There Errors in the Bible?

[HankD]

Hi Craig, here is the response to your post above seeing that it is still here:

Luke 4
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

So in the Luke account we have an additional clause of "in a moment of time" which clearly indicates that this is a metaphysical event.

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And even if it were not why would we be surprised that the devil had this power?

Even mankind has the power to see both sides of the earth simultaneously through the "miracle" of satellite communications.

HankD

 

[danrusdad]

So Jesus didn't see all the kingdoms of the world? Then was it a true temptation for Him?

I think you fail to realize the implications of a biblical author who lies...

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
It is impossible for there to be errors in God's Book, of any kind. The error rests solely in your, or my, understanding. Where we may find an alleged error; obey a simple rule. God is always right.

And dare I add
the following corollary?

Av1611jim is rarely right.

And for balance

Ed is rarely right.

But we know: God is always right.

DAY - 6. the struggle or contest occuring on
a certain day

DAY - 5. a time of flourishing, power, glory, success, etc.

I liked a dictionary that said:

DAY - 7. the appropriate time

All dictionaries i've seen fail to
mention the 48-hour day. While a specific
named day (like 18 July 2004) lasts 24-hours
at one place on the Earth;
such a specific named day last 48-hours
on all places on the Earth.

Let us sing our Young Earth/Limited God
theme song

To the tune of
"Blest be the tie that binds"

Blest be the assumption that binds,
Our God to 24-hour days

May God's blessings Fall upon all who
read this, especially on this Lord's
Day, 17 July 2004.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I personally don't have a problem accepting that God could make an earth with the appearance of age - but why would he?

So Adam and Eve wouldn't have to wait for the "apple tree" to grow before they could eat.

 

[HankD]

So Jesus didn't see all the kingdoms of the world? Then was it a true temptation for Him?

No. that's not what I meant when I said it was a metaphysical experience:

meta·phys·i·cal:
1 : of or relating to metaphysics.
2 a : of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses
b : SUPERNATURAL Merriam-Webster Online

While the word metaphysical might imply an "unreal" experience, I used it as applicable to a supernatural experience or an experience which is transcendent of the physical realm.

The devil (as the Scriptures declares), has at least some supernatural powers and he showed Jesus ALL the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time just as the passage says. The event was not only dependent upon the measurement in feet or meters of the "high" place, but of the powers allowed by God to the devil.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
It is impossible for there to be errors in God's Book, of any kind. The error rests solely in your, or my, understanding. Where we may find an alleged error; obey a simple rule. God is always right.

I believe most of us would agree with this statement av1611jim.

However, there are and always have been from early on "errors" introduced into the copied manuscripts and translated texts by man.

The KJV is no exception which the translators acknowledged with margin readings and they began correcting the text publicly in 1613, which goes unto this day (I include the NKJV in that monumental effort}.

Unfortunately, there has not been complete unanimity as to the corrected text (even of the TR types) which has resulted in several different KJVs.

HankD

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

We have here in Matthew 4 a historical narrative in which Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, and this historical narrative tells us explicitly how Satan accomplished this—he took Jesus up into an “exceeding high mountain” from which Jesus could view the entire earth. In order for this historical event to have actually taken place, it would be necessary for the earth to be flat. Therefore, the writer of Mark’s Gospel clearly believed the earth to be flat, and this very mistaken concept caused the writer of this Gospel to write a historical narrative that was not historically accurate.

HankD took the words right out of my mouth. I would have said that this appears to be a supernatural event. There is nothing here to indicate a belief that the earth was flat.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The very simple fact that Matthew records in his historical narratives that Satan used the vantage point of a very high mountain lends much credence to the flat earth concept, but none at all to the idea that Matthew is recording a metaphysical event. If the event was metaphysical, there would be no need whatsoever of a very high mountain. Even Luke agrees that Satan took Jesus up in elevation where he would have the necessary vantage point to view all of the earth. Luke’s mention of a “moment in time” tells us that Jesus was up high enough that he was able to see the whole earth at once without having to climb us several different lower mountains. Luke writes from the point of view of a medical doctor, and not from the point of view of metaphysics. Matthew and Luke agree that Jesus was up high enough that he was able to view, from that single vantage point, the land mass of the entire inhabited world. That a flat earth is in view here is a matter of fact, not mere conjecture. People who try to explain away even the most straightforward historical narratives in the gospels do violence the very principles biblical hermeneutics and make Christians appear as though they are grasping at old, tattered, and flimsy straws to maintain a basis for their faith. Personally, I don’t need such artificial “helps” to believe in the message of the Bible, and I believe that there is abundant evidence that such artificial “helps” have caused many to see the Bible as a hodgepodge of poorly written accounts of greatly distorted or totally imaginary events that needs to be constantly defended in order for anyone to believe what it says.

The Bible is God’s perfect and divine revelation to man. It is not an old, moldy quilt that is severely in need of cleaning and repair.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
The very simple fact that Matthew records in his historical narratives that Satan used the vantage point of a very high mountain lends much credence to the flat earth concept, but none at all to the idea that Matthew is recording a metaphysical event. If the event was metaphysical, there would be no need whatsoever of a very high mountain. Even Luke agrees that Satan took Jesus up in elevation where he would have the necessary vantage point to view all of the earth. Luke’s mention of a “moment in time” tells us that Jesus was up high enough that he was able to see the whole earth at once without having to climb us several different lower mountains. Luke writes from the point of view of a medical doctor, and not from the point of view of metaphysics. Matthew and Luke agree that Jesus was up high enough that he was able to view, from that single vantage point, the land mass of the entire inhabited world. That a flat earth is in view here is a matter of fact, not mere conjecture. People who try to explain away even the most straightforward historical narratives in the gospels do violence the very principles biblical hermeneutics and make Christians appear as though they are grasping at old, tattered, and flimsy straws to maintain a basis for their faith. Personally, I don’t need such artificial “helps” to believe in the message of the Bible, and I believe that there is abundant evidence that such artificial “helps” have caused many to see the Bible as a hodgepodge of poorly written accounts of greatly distorted or totally imaginary events that needs to be constantly defended in order for anyone to believe what it says.

This is really stretching. I don't see how anyone, even an unbeliever, would think this passage indicates the Bible is teaching that the earth is flat! Even if Jesus was on top of the highest place on earth and the earth was spread out flat, he could not see everything! If you want to make it all natural, then it still doesn't work as no one could see that far. This is obviously a supernatural event or vision.


We have the Isaiah passage about God being enthroned above the "circle of the earth." This does not sound like flat earth.

I have a question for you, Craig. Since you think this teaches the earth is flat, then are you saying God thought the earth was flat since He inspired every word Matthew and Luke wrote?

 

[HankD]

If the event was metaphysical, there would be no need whatsoever of a very high mountain. Even Luke agrees that Satan took Jesus up in elevation where he would have the necessary vantage point to view all of the earth. Luke’s mention of a “moment in time” tells us that Jesus was up high enough that he was able to see the whole earth at once without having to climb us several different lower mountains...

That a flat earth is in view here is a matter of fact, not mere conjecture. People who try to explain away even the most straightforward historical narratives in the gospels do violence the very principles biblical hermeneutics and make Christians appear as though they are grasping at old, tattered, and flimsy straws to maintain a basis for their faith. Personally, I don’t need such artificial “helps” to believe in the message of the Bible, and I believe that there is abundant evidence that such artificial “helps” have caused many to see the Bible as a hodgepodge of poorly written accounts of greatly distorted or totally imaginary events that needs to be constantly defended in order for anyone to believe what it says.

That's fine Craig, you have the right to believe whatever you wish as well as the right (evidently) to issue inunnedo and oblique ad hominems against your brethren.

I repeat, the devil has supernatural powers granted by God. I believe one of them is/was to flash all the kingdoms of God before Jesus view in a moment. Jesus being God incarnate was able to handle it.

The "high mountain" is not identified but...

Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


HankD

 

[Craigbythesea]

We have the Isaiah passage about God being enthroned above the "circle of the earth." This does not sound like flat earth.

Marcia,

I see that you conveniently failed to quote the entire verse, for Isa. 40:22 in reality is another verse in the Bible that pictures the earth as being flat.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

In this passage of narrative, God is NOT sitting upon the spherical earth; He is sitting upon the “circle of the earth,” i.e., the dome, the canopy ABOVE the flat earth. And from that high vantage point, the inhabitants of the earth appear as grasshoppers.

When I was in elementary school, we had a time a “sharing” when students would take turns sharing with the rest of the class something that they had seen or experienced. One girl shared with us her visit to the Empire State Building and told us that from the observation deck the cars down below on the street looked like “ants.” We have a very similar thing here in Isa. 40:22, but of course God did not see cars that looked like ants; He saw people who looked like grasshoppers.

People who do not understand ancient Jewish views of the earth and the heavens often fail to understand the things that are being described in the Bible. May I suggest that you crack open a few books and learn a little more about the Bible?

 

[Craigbythesea]

I repeat, the devil has supernatural powers granted by God. I believe one of them is/was to flash all the kingdoms of God before Jesus view in a moment. Jesus being God incarnate was able to handle it.

HankD,

Yes, the devil has supernatural powers, but both Matthew and Luke tell us that Satan took Jesus to a high elevation from which he could see the entire inhabited earth. Rather than think about Satan and his supernatural powers to do things that the Bible never said that he did, I prefer to stick to what the Bible actually says.

 

[Marcia]

People who do not understand ancient Jewish views of the earth and the heavens often fail to understand the things that are being described in the Bible. May I suggest that you crack open a few books and learn a little more about the Bible?

My, my! This statement is clearly meant as a put-down. Am I supposed to be intimidated? Are you able to discuss things without doing this? It would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

This is not saying the earth is flat. It's talking about the heavens being stretched out like a tent. A tent covering is not flat, either.

Also, you never answered my question asked previously which I will ammend here to include verses other than the Matthew and Luke verss:

Since you say the Bible says the earth is flat, are you saying God thought the earth was flat since He inspired every word written in the Bible? Or is it that you do not think the Bible is God-breathed?

 

[UTEOTW]

If you do not mind me jumping in here. Craig can correct me if I speak incorrectly.

"This is not saying the earth is flat. It's talking about the heavens being stretched out like a tent. A tent covering is not flat, either."

I think Craig is on the right track. If you would look at a reference book or even do a little Googling, you will see that the ancient Jews, and the other people of the region for that matter, had a view of the world as such. It was flat, surrounded by a great sea (the "deep"), and there was a dome over the earth. The dome contained the stars and separated the waters above from the waters below. Openings would allow rain to fall. The sun and moon moves in between the earth and the dome or on the dome.

If you know this, then the references to it in the Bible make a lot of sense.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven."

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth."

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life...the windows of heaven were opened."

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. "

Just to throw out a few. Thus you can then understand that the "circle of the earth" was either talking about the flat disk of the earth or of the dome above it, depending on which definition you use. The context sems to indicate the dome.

Which leads to your other question. "Since you say the Bible says the earth is flat, are you saying God thought the earth was flat since He inspired every word written in the Bible? Or is it that you do not think the Bible is God-breathed?"

I think the opinion is that the words were inspired by God but not dictated. The Bible tell us, in part, about the relationship between God and Man. It seems a bit more personal to think that what we have is the writings of all these people from throughout the ages telling of their experiences with God. Their words are inspired but not necessarily all dictated by God. So some of their personal experiences are incorporated into the Bible. In this case, the perspective of the writer was of a flat earth, and that comes through. It doesn't mean that God says the world was flat. It does not even mean that the Bible says that the world was flat. It just means that some of the worlview of the writer comes through. And since the high mountain location for the temptation in the Gospels has been brought up, you have similar issues.

There might could even be a compromise position where you can allow the inital words to be "God-breathed" but that what we have today reflects some of these types of worldviews being inserted during copying.

 

[HankD]

Rather than think about Satan and his supernatural powers to do things that the Bible never said that he did, I prefer to stick to what the Bible actually says.

We finally agree:

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Flat earth, round earth, oval earth, whatever earth, it doesn't say which, so it doesn't matter, this is exactly what happened.


HankD

 

[Craigbythesea]

My, my! This statement is clearly meant as a put-down. Am I supposed to be intimidated? Are you able to discuss things without doing this? It would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

No, my statement was not meant as a putdown, it was meant to say precisely what it did say,

"People who do not understand ancient Jewish views of the earth and the heavens often fail to understand the things that are being described in the Bible. May I suggest that you crack open a few books and learn a little more about the Bible?" I do not believe that it is too much to ask that people who post about biblical hermeneutics on Christian message boards do a little bit of reading and studying before they post, especially if they are going to criticize the posts of someone who has.

 

[Craigbythesea]

If you do not mind me jumping in here. Craig can correct me if I speak incorrectly.

UTEOTW,

Thank you for jumping in. And no, you did not speak incorrectly.

 

[Jason Gastrich]

The Bible describes the Earth as a circle far before science proved it. You can call it flat if you want, though.

God bless,
Jason

 

[Brett]

The Earth is a sphere, not a circle.

A circle is flat.

 

[Jason Gastrich]

If you are above the Earth, as the verse states, the Earth looks like a circle.

Can you tell me the ancient Hebrew word for sphere and where it is used in the OT?

JG