Are "words of life" only meant for those already living?

[Skandelon]

Jesus calls his words "spirit and life" yet Calvinists maintain that men cannot accept them unless they have first been made alive (regenerated).

Doesn't it seem redundant for God to send words meant to bring men new life only to those who he has made alive already by some other means?

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus calls his words "spirit and life" yet Calvinists maintain that men cannot accept them unless they have first been made alive (regenerated).

Doesn't it seem redundant for God to send words meant to bring men new life only to those who he has made alive already by some other means?

No, as the Gospel is indeed the very power of God to save those whom he has chosen and elected in Christ to receive eternal life!
So that is the Agent/means that God chose in order to bring His sonsand daughters to Christ...

The word does NOT come back void, accomplishes its purpose, to have the elected ones place faith in Christ and be saved, confirming their election and calling!

 

[Skandelon]

No, as the Gospel is indeed the very power of God to save those whom he has chosen and elected in Christ to receive eternal life!
So that is the Agent/means that God chose in order to bring His sonsand daughters to Christ...

So you are saying the "words of life" are the means God uses to bring people to life who are already born again as "sons and daughters?" Again, seems redundant for God to use the means of "words of life" to bring life to those already living.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=Skandelon;1733000]So you are saying the "words of life" are the means God uses to bring people to life who are already born again as "sons and daughters?" Again, seems redundant for God to use the means of "words of life" to bring life to those already living.

[/QUOTE]



No, its that the words of jesus and Apostles, the "Gospel/teachings" are what the Lord used to accomplish its work, as when to to whom it is sent hear it and get saved, they confirm their election and calling being from the Lord!

 

[Skandelon]

No, its that the words of jesus and Apostles, the "Gospel/teachings" are what the Lord used to accomplish its work

And what work is that if its not to "make them alive" which is what I said from the beginning?

as when to to whom it is sent hear it

1. It is sent to "every creature," according to scripture.

2. Why do they hear it according to Calvinism? Because they are already alive, which brings me to the point of the OP... REDUNDANCY.

 

[humblethinker]

And what work is that if its not to "make them alive" which is what I said from the beginning?

1. It is sent to "every creature," according to scripture.

2. Why do they hear it according to Calvinism? Because they are already alive, which brings me to the point of the OP... REDUNDANCY.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Very good points. I'd like to understand how cals explain this.

 

[Skandelon]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Very good points. I'd like to understand how cals explain this.

As would I.

Jesus calls his words "spirit and life" yet Calvinists maintain that men cannot accept them unless they have first been made alive (regenerated).

Doesn't it seem redundant for God to send words meant to bring men new life only to those who he has made alive already by some other means?

 

[12strings]

We Cals and semi-Cals would I believe say, as JesusFan says, that the word is the means by which God makes his Elect alive. We would separate between the "Gospel call" and God's Effectual call (beaten to death elsewhere I believe).

I know it's overdone, but the Raising of Lazurus can help us here. (yes, I know this was a physical resurection rather than a spiritual regeneration).
Jesus called to one dead man, Lazuraus, by name, and said, come forth. Lazurus had no power in himself to answer that command, but the very command itself gave the life and power to obey it. Jesus did not raise lazurus first, then give him the command to rise. It was a single sentence.

Again, we can't learn everything about salvation from this instance, but it does give an example where God gives a command to a dead person, and the command gives the life to obey it...AND we see Jesus' choice to raise only one man, not every person in the tombs...so he called lazurus by name.

 

[Skandelon]

We Cals and semi-Cals would I believe say, as JesusFan says, that the word is the means by which God makes his Elect alive. We would separate between the "Gospel call" and God's Effectual call

I understand that the elect still must be informed of the gospel truth, but isn't it the act of "regeneration" (irresistible/effectual calling) that actually makes the elect alive? Even if you insist the "effectual working" is accompanied by the "gospel work" it doesn't change this fact, so the question is still the same, why does scripture speak about the power of the words (gospel) instead of the power of this so-called effectual call?

Secondly, in John 6, a passage often referred to as a proof text by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Inability and Effectual calling; Jesus is speaking to an audience who has yet to receive the Gospel (the means God uses to 'draw' or make men alive, even by your own admission). So, how can one conclude that it is not God desire to draw all men to himself after Christ is raised up and the gospel is sent based upon the teaching of John 6? At that time Christ was provoking Israel in their rebellion so as to accomplish the crucifixion. The gospel was being hidden in parables (Matt 13; Mark 4), and Jesus was telling people to keep things quite. Jesus was teaching purposefully difficult teachings (ie eat my flesh) to ensure they would kill him. Israel was being hardened in their rebellion (John 12:39-41), they weren't born that way. The gospel (the means of making men alive, even in your system) wasn't sent to the world UNTIL after he was raised up and clearly it was sent to "every creature." So, by what authority do you claim that God didn't purpose to "draw all men to himself?"

 

[Winman]

Calvinists teach a man must be made alive to hear, and use Lazarus as an example.

The problem with this is that it denies God has the power to speak to the dead. Jesus showed he could speak to the dead, and they (the dead) that hear (showing ability) shall (after hearing) live.

Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

What came first, hearing or living?

We also see in the story of the rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 that the spiritually dead (and physically) can both hear and speak.

So, Calvinism denies Jesus can speak to the dead, and that the dead are able to hear him.

Lazarus did not have to be made alive to hear Jesus, he heard Jesus and his spirit returned to his body, this is when he was alive again. How do I know this? From the maiden that Jesus raised.

Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Was this maiden alive when Jesus spoke to her? NO. The scriptures say the body without the spirit is dead (Jam 2:26).

This maiden was DEAD when Jesus spoke to her, her spirit was absent from her body. But her dead (separated) spirit heard Jesus and returned to her body. Only when her spirit returned to her body was she alive.

And this is what happened to Lazarus as well.

 

[12strings]

The problem with this is that it denies God has the power to speak to the dead.

How did you get this from what I wrote?

Jesus showed he could speak to the dead, and they (the dead) that hear (showing ability) shall (after hearing) live.

I agree Jesus showed he could speak to the dead. But how can you say lazurus had the ability to hear and respond? Not without a God-wrought miracle he couldn't. I am saying the means God used for that miracle were Jesus' very words.

So, Calvinism denies Jesus can speak to the dead,

...no it does not, it says the exact opposite.

and that the dead are able to hear him.

yes it does deny this, unless the dead are enabled to hear. But again, God's Word gives the life that is needed to hear it. God's Word has always given life, from Genesis until now.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus calls his words "spirit and life" yet Calvinists maintain that men cannot accept them unless they have first been made alive (regenerated).

Doesn't it seem redundant for God to send words meant to bring men new life only to those who he has made alive already by some other means?

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

......................
[QUOTE63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
][/QUOTE]

Jesus had just taught on the grace of God...many resisted and went away!

The truths of God's grace can only be received by a born again person.....others hear the words...but cannot welcome the truth of grace as it is...they resist in the flesh...

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Winman]

Romans 8:8 is not showing inability. Barnes Notes on Rom 8:8 (a Calvinist)

Cannot please God- That is, while they are in the flesh, while they pursue the desires of their corrupt nature, they cannot please God. But this affirms nothing respecting their ability to turn from this course, and to pursue a different mode of life.

... But whether he might cease to be obstinate, and become obedient, is a very different inquiry, and the two subjects should never be confounded.

Barnes was a Calvinist, yet he did not interpret this verse to prove inability.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand that the elect still must be informed of the gospel truth, but isn't it the act of "regeneration" (irresistible/effectual calling) that actually makes the elect alive? Even if you insist the "effectual working" is accompanied by the "gospel work" it doesn't change this fact, so the question is still the same, why does scripture speak about the power of the words (gospel) instead of the power of this so-called effectual call?

The 'work" of the HS is to take the message of the Cross and have it "understood" by those whom will get saved, those whom God foreknew and predestined...

he will open up their hearts/minds in order to have the Gospel message for THEM become the power of God unto salvation!

So its BOTH goin going on, as the HS is working to get the elect in a state able to receive the Gospel and thus have it become "power of God" on their behalf!

Secondly, in John 6, a passage often referred to as a proof text by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Inability and Effectual calling; Jesus is speaking to an audience who has yet to receive the Gospel (the means God uses to 'draw' or make men alive, even by your own admission). So, how can one conclude that it is not God desire to draw all men to himself after Christ is raised up and the gospel is sent based upon the teaching of John 6? At that time Christ was provoking Israel in their rebellion so as to accomplish the crucifixion. The gospel was being hidden in parables (Matt 13; Mark 4), and Jesus was telling people to keep things quite. Jesus was teaching purposefully difficult teachings (ie eat my flesh) to ensure they would kill him. Israel was being hardened in their rebellion (John 12:39-41), they weren't born that way. The gospel (the means of making men alive, even in your system) wasn't sent to the world UNTIL after he was raised up and clearly it was sent to "every creature." So, by what authority do you claim that God didn't purpose to "draw all men to himself?"

remember that ONLY those whom God chose to redeem and saved, the "faithful remnant' would be enabled by God to receive jesus as messiah, rest were to stay in their sins...

NOT a special case, just shows us that sinners will by their very natures resist coming to jesus in order to get saved, as very nature until God changes it is to be in rebellion and hard hearted!

 

[Skandelon]

The 'work" of the HS is to take the message of the Cross and have it "understood" by those whom will get saved, those whom God foreknew and predestined...

So, like I said, the "words of life" really don't bring anyone life unless they are first made alive in your system.

So its BOTH goin going on, as the HS is working to get the elect in a state able to receive the Gospel and thus have it become "power of God" on their behalf!

But the power is in the regenerative work, not the gospel then. So, the question of the OP remains...

 

[Winman]

So, like I said, the "words of life" really don't bring anyone life unless they are first made alive in your system.

But the power is in the regenerative work, not the gospel then. So, the question of the OP remains...

Skan, you are beating a dead horse. He's not going to provide scripture to support his view, because there is none.

And he's not going to agree with you no matter how much scripture you provide supporting your view, which is much.

 

[webdog]

I agree Jesus showed he could speak to the dead. But how can you say lazurus had the ability to hear and respond? Not without a God-wrought miracle he couldn't. I am saying the means God used for that miracle were Jesus' very words.

So are you saying that Christ's words (God's, btw) in calling Lazarus were powerless without another work of God first? How does this not render Christ powerless?

 

[JesusFan]

So, like I said, the "words of life" really don't bring anyone life unless they are first made alive in your system.

BOTH the cals and the Arms affirm that it takes God to apply His grace towards us in order to be 'enabled" to be in a state of receiving the Gospel and to place faith in Christ for salvation!

Are you denying that sinful man MUST have God do an additional 'work:" apart from the gospel to save us, as BOTH cals and arms affirm?

But the power is in the regenerative work, not the gospel then. So, the question of the OP remains...

Again, its NOT in the "words" that I speak to the other about the Gospel, its in the CROSS of Christ, That act in history, and the HS prepares the fallen sinner to be in a state to receive it...

Cals say that the applied Grace WILL have the sinner turn to Christ
Arms say that the applied Grace allows them 'free choice" to make!

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=Winman;1734142]Skan, you are beating a dead horse. He's not going to provide scripture to support his view, because there is none.

And he's not going to agree with you no matter how much scripture you provide supporting your view, which is much.[/QUOTE

]

Strange!

Skan claims that he is a classic Arm, yet denies that God provides additional Grace apart from the Gospel?

 

[psalms109:31]

......................
[QUOTE63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
]

Jesus had just taught on the grace of God...many resisted and went away!

The truths of God's grace can only be received by a born again person.....others hear the words...but cannot welcome the truth of grace as it is...they resist in the flesh...

To follow a crowd does not mean you are drawn by the Father, only those who listen and learn will come To Jesus. The words of Jesus is not His own but the Father who sent Him, these are the one's the Father draws to His Son. To follow our flesh, our carner minds, our own understanding leads to death it counts for nothing, to follow the Spirit leads to life and Jesus word is Spirit and they are life.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.


John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.