Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Genembridges;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Calvinists agree that we have a natural ability to make choices. We have a natural ability to seek God out. However, we do not. We have a moral inability to seek God out. Left to our own devices, we will choose the benefits but not the Benefactor Himself.
As far as not being able to seek God I disagree. Total depravity is not supported by scripture. The only passage I've seen thus far that Calvinism claims supports it is the rantings of a fool quoted by Paul from the Psalms. How ever seeking God is talked about all through the Old Testament.Pauls statement was not made while thinking of all those who saught God before Him. Every time a man prays we are seeking God even sinners pray to God a God they may not know but are never the less seeking.
My Statement of it not being a mandate was meant that we are not predestined unalterably ("as in made to be Christian"). Being a Christian is a relationship with God and not something we have no control over.
Being left to our own devices does not mean we are helpless to answer an invitation to come to Him.
May God Bless You;
Mike
</font>[/QUOTE]Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Rom. 3:10-12, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; 12All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”
Rom. 7:18, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."
Rom. 7:23, "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."
1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
Eph. 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Since God's word declares that the unregenerate man has a deceitful heart, does not do good, does not seek for God, cannot understand spiritual things, has nothing good dwelling in him, is dead in his sins, and is by nature a child of wrath, we maintain that he is incapable of making a moral choice to decide to trust in Christ on his own. We maintain that his will is also affected by sin and, as the word of God says in Romans 6:14-20, he is a slave of sin. This means that he is incapable of coming to God on his own because he cannot and will not choose contrary to his fallen and sinful nature.
Jesus' intellect has no corruption. His speech always glorifies God. His motives are always pure. His character is without stain and completely flawless. How many of us would dare say that the unregenerate, like Jesus, are able to equally choose good and evil and make the right choices. Not I. The truth is that we have all been touched by sin and Jesus Himself teaches us that our natures are corrupt and fallen.
Jesus said of the unregenerate...
in Mark 7:21-23 Jesus said, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
and....
Matt. 15:19 He said, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20"These are the things which defile the man."
and...
John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
and also...
John 3:19, "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."
Why are their deeds evil? Because Jesus said, "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit," (Matt. 7:17-18).
Jesus speaks of the nature of a thing. The nature of the fallen is that he is sinful, completely touched by sin in all that he is.
Unsaved people do not want to be born again. Since they do not want to be born again, they will not chose Christ. Why? Because the Bible says that no one seeks for God on his own. Rom. 3:10-12, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; 12 have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” Furthermore, in Rom. 7:18, Paul says, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me."
Choosing Christ is a good thing. If nothing good dwells in us, then we can not do truly good things.
Calvinists agree: the will is free. The MIND is not free. It is a slave to its desires. Since none of them are good, how can it choose Christ on its own?
It can not.
You continue to say that we believe people can not seek God. They can, but they do not want to do so, because sin goes to the radix. If they want to, it is because God has enabled them to do so. "Then why do they not all get saved?" Because they do not want to. They are not seeking the Person of God, they are seeking the benefits not the Benefactor. No person has the ability to come to Christ ON THEIR OWN. This is not supported by Scripture. When Jesus said, "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by my Father, this is a universal negative proposition. This is a plain statement of universal inability. "Can" does not indicate permission, it indicates ability or power. To say no one can do this is to say, no one is able to do it.
Moral inability does not mean the will in unable to choose at all. It means the ability to will "any good accompanying salvation has been lost."
Does God have the moral ability to sin? NO. Why? It is not in his nature to do so. I continue to be amazed at how inconsistent Arminians are with their beliefs about the will. If we can choose Christ and be the immoral creatures we are, then the same logic must apply to God. He must be able to sin. However, none of you would dare say that. This shows either you don't understand how inconsistent you are being, or you don't understand what we believe.
God is totally free. He is totally free in one direction. He can not sin. It is not in his nature. We affirm that we are free as well. We are free in one direction as well, to sin.
Does this mean we can do nothing good. Well, it depends on what you mean by "good," doesn't it. We believe our choices are determined. This isn't determinism. It simply means our choices are determined by our desires. Our desires define show our nature, just as God's desires show his nature. Do unregenerate men love God? NO. Paul said nothing good dwells in me. Since nothing good dwells in us, then how can we love God? We can do good things. We can perform acts of civil virtue, deeds that conform outwardly to God's law, but so did the Pharisees, and they very clearly loved themselves, not God. The supreme motive for doing these acts must be love of God. If the heart is alienated from God, then nothing it does can be truly good. Secretly, unregenerate persons do good and "seek God" for selfish reasons. They are seeking peace, relief from guilt, an answer to purposelessness, fulfillment, and other benefits, but not God Himself.
The unbeliever CAN respond to God. His response will be in accordance to scripture that says he cannot do good, is a hater of God, is full of evil, etc., Therefore, we conclude that his free will response will be to reject God, according to the limits described by scripture itself.
It is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).
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