Arminian Theology

The problem is that if the first four points of Arminianism are true, then there is no such thing as eternal security or the preservation of the saints. If a man can be saved by his corrupted "free will", then he must continue to be saved by his corrupted "free will", which just can't happen as no man can live a life of faithfulness and holiness by his corrupted "free will".

 

The Cavlinist response to that is to ignore the point that it is God who DRAWS and convicts and ENABLES the lost supernaturally and to "pretend" that the the Arminians HAD said "man's corrupted will can do all that is needed without God's supernatural divine powerful drawing".

They have to "pretend" that the Arminians say that - because Calvinism itself ADMITS that the Drawing of God IS sufficient to deal with the "innactivity caused by depravity".

Calvinism's consistent reponse is to argue that God chooses in the ABSENCE of His foreknowledge - that "election" is in fact "arbitrary selection" and the reason is that this guarantees that man played no part in the selection process.

Indeed - God is "NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".2Pet 3:9

Dying for "OUR sins and NOT our sins only but for those of the WHOLE world". 1John 2:2

The Calvinist response is to 'redefine world' and "redefine All" (in the case of 5 point Calvinism".

So that they become "the arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7".

Having "Drawn ALL" to enable them to come - enable free will, He does not reject their choice not to come - "He CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not".

But that is the "mechanism" for allowing Adam to fall, Lucifer to fall, and it is the mechanism for the Matt 18 (last 10 vs) scenario of "forgiveness revoked".

IF God had desired to abort free will - He should have started with Lucifer and saved 1/3 of the Angels. Or at least got around to it with Adam and saved mankind as well as the death of His Son.

In every case - God chose to endorse free will at great cost to Himself.

As is Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5 (Falling from Grace) etc.

Point 5 is simply a correlary to point 4.

As Ken says - the points of Arminianism tend to be intertwined so that the result is hard to avoid if all the previous points are true.

Basically I agree with Calvinist on their criticism of Arminians on that point - though they seem to refuse to address the previous points at times because they 'need' Arminians to be saying something a little bit different than what they are saying.

Your point 1 also shows agreement with Calvinists on depravity and the ability of the drawing of God to compensate. That is a point we have in common with them. They just turn "Draw" into force-without-choice at some point - whereas Arminians leave it as 'draw' that "enables" choice.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 19, 2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

The problem is that if the first four points of Arminianism are true, then there is no such thing as eternal security or the preservation of the saints. If a man can be saved by his corrupted "free will", then he must continue to be saved by his corrupted "free will", which just can't happen as no man can live a life of faithfulness and holiness by his corrupted "free will".</font>[/QUOTE]Are all Calvinist this reluctant to think things through. When one is saved by Christ, the Holy Spirit enters. (You have heard of the indwelling Holy Spirit have you not)Regeneration begins. He is our security. Another straw man catches fire and burns... This strawman gone, hopefully it will bring you atleast one step closer to the truth...

[ October 19, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

If one is going to argue that man can be saved by exercsing his free will, then you must also stand for the idea that man can reject salvation by the same free will. Otherwise you are saying that once someone is saved, he no longer has the free will you previously said he exercised to be saved in the first place. If you are going to argue that man has the ability to come to Christ, then you must also stand for the the idea that man has the ability to leave Christ.

 

Free will is neither corrupt nor incorrupt! Belief is what is corrupt or incorrupt.

Free will is the excercise of belief. The saved and unsaved alike exercise their own free will. The difference is the basis of belief upon which they exercise their free will. Therefore when one changes ones belief, the free will also changes to reflect that belief.

One cannot force another to believe a certain way (as witnessed on these forums). However, one can provide belief changing persuasion that influences the beliefs of another. Change comes from within, and cannot be "caused" externally.

 

Why must I stand for anything that I do not stand for. Freewill is the ability to make a choice. Having made a choice you will suffer the consequences unless Christ removes the consequences. The consequences of accepting Christ as your savior; is that you will be saved

Just like, when you are in hell, it is too late to have a change of mind. Once in Christ, you have made your choice. Now suffer the consequences. Get on up to heaven and stop your whining. (he he)

In Christ, you can walk away from Christ, but he will not walk away from you. In Christ, you are not the caretaker of your salvation, Christ is. And true to his word to the Father, you belong to him; and he will not lose a single one to Satan.

Your perseverance of the saints, is tenuous at best. Even in Christ, sometimes we persevere, some times we do not. Just as you do not save yourself in the first place,(Christ did) you cannot stay saved in the second place.

So my salvation is not based on my perseverance, it's based on Christ’s. You still think that I say that I do something that saves me. No, No, NO, No, No..... I accept what Christ has done.

For my perseverance, I shall receive a reward. Salvation is not my reward for persevering, for that I shall receive a crown of righteousness, but only if I have been saved.

See, I do not have to believe what you say I believe.

 

Ken, you can choose to jump out of an airplane, but you cannot choose to undo that jump once you are falling!

Same idea. To be born again is to be given a NEW heart with a NEW will. One cannot be unbornagain as a return trip! Christ is absolutely faithful to those who are his, and should one of us wander, He has said He sets out in search for that lost sheep.

We have examples in life of a good many irrevocable choices. It should come as no shock that a decision made to yield to Christ cannot be unmade. After all, He takes over completely from there! And the new heart never wants to leave Him!

 

Warm Christian greetings!

Foreknowledge does not mean merely the knowledge of an event before it happens.

See Acts 2 v 23; God did not merely know in advance that Jesus would die for our sins, He made it happen! In a similar way God did not simply know that a person would be saved if given the chance, He destined it to happen.

Kind regards

Robert J Hutton

 

Helen,

And if one turn away from the plow?

One can change their own beliefs, we human's do that at various stages of our lives as a matter of living.

When we were teenagers we believed one way, but when we became adults our beliefs changed too. I actually believed well into my 40s that I was indestructible, then I fathered my son and discovered how quickly I could be melted from the solid rock that is was to the soft clay that child caused me to become. From non conformer to conformer, virtually overnight! Perhaps I wasn't what I believed myself to be after all!

As we progress through our lives, our beliefs continue to change, Senior citizens do not believe the same things they did as younger persons.

When we are forced to face our mortality our beliefs take on some dramatic changes. We evaluate and categorize everything into two stacks, temporal and eternal!

Before we have children we believe one way, but after we have that first child, our belief system changes.

Unfortunately, beliefs that do not receive constant refreshment may become ineffectual and change or become lost due to stagnation.

I believe there are irrevocable consequences to our choices, but our beliefs can change the instant we jump out of the airplane. It is by our belief alone that we are saved.

 

According to free willism, if one's old heart and old will was good enough to save him, then why wouldn't it be good enough to keep him saved? Free willism falls by its own logic.

[ October 19, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

There is no way the Bible can be used to support the idea of a person becoming saved, living for the devil, and ending up in heaven. Yes, a child of God will sin as he is still in an unredeemed body. Yes, he may fall into grievous sin for a while. But he will not stay in that condition as the Holy Spirit's conviction working in the new heart will bring him back into full fellowship with God.

 

Could be, Ray. I have had thoughts like that myself.

[ October 19, 2002, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]