quantumfaith
Active Member
Luke, what about the scripture which says that man sins due to his own heart and God "tempts no man to sin". Please forgive me for not having the scriptural reference at my immediate recall, James I think.
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Arminians and Sovereignty
- Thread starter Luke2427
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God does not tempt men to sin. God hates sin. But God has always intended for sin to come into the world. God uses sin for his own glory. Without sin Christ could not be glorified for grace, because grace could not be manifested if there were no undeserving creatures upon which to bestow it.
Mercy cannot be magnified without sin.
Calvary cannot exist without sin to die for.
Can you imagine a heaven with no praises to Christ for grace and mercy and forgiveness and sacrificial love?
We could praise him for be a ruling Lord but we could not praise him for being a redeeming Lord- if God had not decreed that sin should come into the world.
Sin was necessary for all those things to be manifested and magnified.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I think the primary difference between you and me, is the classic controversy and discussion over the issue of "foreknowing" and "forecausing". Guess, we will just leave it there. Blessings to you.
OK. Thanks for stopping in. The difference is that I believe God decreed sin for his own glorious purposes. The only alternative is that sin was some cosmic accident that God never intended and now He's trying to clean up.
That's not the God of the Bible though is it?
The God of the Bible designed everything to happen for a reason.
quantumfaith
Active Member
No Luke, that is NOT what WE say, sin is not some unpredicted outcome that surprised God, but WE would also say it was not PLANNED by God, but rather, in His infinite knowledge HE KNEW it would happen. While I agree with you, God is glorified through our repentance from sin, I do not "think" God "NEEDS" us to glorify him, to me, that makes HIM a rather small and insecure God. To me God created, because He is LOVE, IMHO the greatest attribute (property) of God.
Please be careful and "sensitive" in how you attempt to "classify" those of us believers who choose not to hold to the doctrines of Calvinism. Making seemingly "disparaging" characterizations does nothing to enhance your positions.
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God did not plan it?
Then God is not Sovereign. Even Arminian theologians like Theissen believe that God decreed the existence of sin.
You think that things happen that God never intended? How is that possible?
And tell me how God's grace and mercy can be magnified without sin. I bet you will avoid that challenge.
quantumfaith
Active Member
God's grace and mercy are magnified by my humility (small as it may be at times) in acknowledging who I am and who He is.
The alternative, brother, is that God is not in control of some things. If God did not intend it, did not want it to happen then it happened apart from his control. God, even though he knew it was going to happen, he has to come by AFTER it happens and start cleaning it all up.
Is that what you believe Calvary was?
Or do you not recognize that God always intended to lavish a people with grace and mercy and so planned things so that sin would enter the world so that he could redeem people and lavish them for eternity with his grace?
You've got to choose.
That is really not a good thing to say.
Grace has NOTHING to do with you. Grace is ALL of God. It is unmerited favor. It is not possible that it is magnified to the fullest without sin.
How does Christ die for sin and get praised forever for his sacrifice if there is no sin to die for? You know the answer.
Did God not intend for Christ to be praised forever for dying for sinners?
Was it an afterthought in the mind of God.
Or did God always intend for all of these things to take place?
The answer is clear, isn't it?
God gets glory for his grace by being kind to sinners and saving them through the blood of Christ. Without sin God gets no glory for mercy and grace.
God decreed sin because he wishes to get the greatest amount of glory and to glorify, to the fullest degree, his son.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
I have been communicating with Calvinist since 1993 and have come to many conclusion that the calvinist believe in. I am no way's a hyper-Calvinist and know that calvinist is incomplete work, the only complete work is found in scripture.
I believe in the elect the way you do.
That God has included with the elect chosen before the foundation of the world those that hear the Gospel of their salvation having believe.
The words we carry the words of Jesus is Spirit and life that regenerates the hearts that keep His word, and we are to encourage one another to keep it. We can't change ourselves, but His word can.
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Inaccurate view of sovereignty. Sovereign is defined as "supreme ultimate authority over" something.
Case in point. My son plans with his friends to see a movie. He comes to me to ask permission. I can either grant it or deny it...I'm sovereign over the situation if he sees the movie or not even though I did not plan it. Say I grant him permission. I tell him he can see movie A, B or C but that's all. He and his friends PLAN on seeing movie B. Again, he planned it but I remained sovereign over the situation.
Soverein means authority. God allowed sin to enter the world even though He did not plan or desire it. To desire sin in itself is a sin. To plan sin is a sin.
No, that is Open Theism that really puts YOU in charge, not God.
Did God plan murder? Did He plan and detail and orchestrate the killing of His Son? Killing violates the 10 Commandments. Cold blooded murder is evil.
Is God thus evil or Sovereignly in control of all the details to work them together for His purpose?
Did God plan murder? Did He plan and detail and orchestrate the killing of His Son? Killing violates the 10 Commandments. Cold blooded murder is evil.
Is God thus evil or Sovereignly in control of all the details to work them together for His purpose?
quantumfaith
Active Member
This is also incorrect, Open Theism, simply takes the position that "God" does not know future contingencies, some in that school say that He cannot, some in that school say He chooses to limit himself in that way. That is the major "crux" of Open Theism. BTW, I am NOT an Open Theist, or Process Theology adherent.
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Luke, sorry if I was too brief. Any belief entailing the absolute foreknowledge of God(Arminian or Calvinist) will have the logical consequent of endangering free will, making both omniscience and free will incompatible. If one holds this view then God and not man are ultimately responsible for mans actions. Thereby making God responsible for evil,sin, and suffering. These are all things that we are enjoined from engaging in according to scripture.
You are correct in pointing out that reconciling free will and exhaustive foreknowledge should lead the Arminian to open theism. I have been there. Reconciling God as the cause of evil should lead the Calvinist there as well
Bear in mind the open view does not preclude God from causing whatsoever He chooses to come to pass. It does however leave the future that He does not absolutely determine unknowable with absolute certainty, and contingent upon the free acts of man.
I am aware of the arguments made against the open view and have studied the strengths of all sides as well as the weaknesses and would encourage all of us to do the same. Acknowledging Gods goodness and serving the risen Lord Jesus will keep us all rightly related. Hope that clarified my point.
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