Arminians/non cals only respond here

Honestly I cannot understand who was saying what.

 

Here is the “real” argument in context: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72690


Below is just one of my posts trying to hold Iconoclast to a logical deductive argument while he engages in various methods of evasions and circular arguments in his efforts to side step the subject of the OP, to derail the tread, and for lack of better words (rhetorically and deceitfully winks in self-presumed cleverness and pride of his ability to fall back on semantics thinking to avoid any logical conclusions on what he has admitted about his Doctrine of “pre-selected” Grace) while he strives about to continue with his teaching others his “bible truth” which is equal to nothing less than a heretical-hyper determinist view that some men have no hope because they have not been pre-selected:


Post #184:

Try to follow the argument Iconoclast:

It’s a legitimate question Iconoclast, and you revealed by your method of witnessing that you indeed use window dressings to cover up your “bible truth” that “you don’t know if they are elect or not” and “God has not planned to save everyone”. THAT means you believe THAT grace is limited to the “pre-selected few”… REALLY!

Put together the dots and you will see exactly why I said, “your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few”

Your presentation of the Gospel and communicating is full of deceit, you clearly show you are not up front with your witnessing above unless they scoff at you, then you proclaim that you will lay it on them that basically/practically they DO have an excuse not to believe because of your warped belief that God might not have pre-selected them as elect. BUT that’s not what the Bible says, the Bible says all God ways are judgment, that none have an excuse, that the offer of grace extends to all His creatures AND He is Truth in this matter and all matters. All this is covered in the OP but instead of following an argument you want to play games of circular arguments. (You say, “Where did I proclaim pre-selection/fore-election?!?” ) Or is it that you struggle with the word “real”?

Now read my final reply below to your example of witnessing, note your deception through the window dressing, (do you know what I mean by window dressing?) and note the relevance of the question of whether or not you would lie to your own children or tell them your “bible truth” and hope that they are pre-selected. What if they “tried to mock or scoffed at you”? Is it then they get your “bible truth” about election? I’m sorry if you can not see the deceit in “your ways” and how it is rooted in lie after lie all to hold on to and support your false manmade doctrine. Answer the question. Do you have a double standard or not?

I told my children the truth of our Loving God and “His way” of offering forgiveness for whosoever will believe His Truth. I didn’t have to hold anything back or disguise my belief; I put it all on the table for whosoever I am witnessing to. Friend, God does not have a double standard!

 

Nice try, but NO, Iconoclast it was another tread that I repeated Jesus’ Words about being a child of the devil that you apparently took personal; maybe because the shoe must have fit?…

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72844&page=4

Here is it again:

Post # 33

Anyone (highlighted for clarity) who attributes sin and evil to God is a liar and a child of the Devil, the truth is not them!

Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jesus, the Word, had a reply for those who attributed sin to Him: John 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He told us who would be saying such lies:

John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God did not create, decree, ordain sin or evil, it came from the Devil, he was responsible:

Eze 28:14-18
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The Devil is the one who lied in the garden and told men they could be as gods, and the Devil and his helpers attempt to attribute sin and evil onto God today, they say the Word is not Truth. They say we can not seek God.
Amo 5:14
(14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.

The Devil brought sin onto the world and Jesus, the Word was manifested for this purpose and those who believe in the Goodness of God are the ones who have the truth.

1Jn 3:8
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is the message of the Word which God’s sons hear:

1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

…And this is for the message of the Devil and his liars, who tell lies and attempt to hide it within their words:

Isa 5:20-21
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

 

I'm tired of casing your rabbit trails and having to defend the truth against people who attribute evil to God and preach a message of darkness on a Christian board.

I've had enough debate with you to know you are either incapable or unwilling of following a logical argument. I'm done. Better things to do than rehash this.

Have at it.

 

Icon, where did Satan's intent to "become like God" originate?

Did God come up with that intent and make Satan's nature so that he would certainly have that intent? Or did Satan come up with it on his own?

 

Rabbit trails?! He's asking you to stay on track. Deal with the specifics of the OP. You are the evasive one.

 

There in lies your problem..... "Intolerance"

 

Intent:

1. Something that is intended; purpose; design; intention: The original intent of the committee was to raise funds.

According to the definition I'd say yes, it was all intentional. Or perhaps you want to use another word now?

Certainly God created him with this, purposely, knowingly, and permissively, to accomplish His purposes, and satan fell right into Gods plan.

Wonder who created such a being with such a potential ability knowing he could use this and cause so much suffering?

Hypothetical situation: If a person created a living organism, and in design he purposely permitted this living organism to have the potential to go out and let's see, burn down entire neighborhoods killing many people, and it did it, who would society blame? I guarantee it wouldn't be the creature alone.

Satan is a created being. Under Gods control. This didn't just "occur" to God when it happened.

He already knew it and His plan went forth. As a matter of fact, since things are not out of His control, perhaps God wanted all that has happened to take place, (call it whichever "will" you need to) and so it has and is.

I know people struggle with that and become angry, and go into "so what you're saying is...!!!" and other pejoratives, but it is what it is, and when one elaborates upon this others become inflamed.

Does this make God the "author" of sin, and other accusatory adjectives? Define your terms.

I trust Him in it all. Anyone else also?

- Peace

 

interesting posulation both sides here!

Did God create Lucifer with intent and purpose to "destine" him to become satan and the Great Deiver?
Dtermined Will of God, and direct caused by God to be His and ours "Great enemy?"

Did God create Lucifer with free will that potentially could go evil by choice, and predetermine thatonce he chose to become satan, that His will and plans would use that act for His grand purposes to be fulfilled?

 

It's a joke, Calvinists must preach the gospel like an Armininian, putting all emphasis on BELIEVEING. They can't honestly tell a person that Jesus loves them, they can't honestly tell a person Jesus died for them. They are left ONLY with telling people to BELIEVE. Then AFTER the person trusts Christ they must explain what just happened to them. Ridiculous!

If the poor fellow who just trusted Christ dare says he believed on Jesus, he will be assaulted on all sides, told that he hated God, and the only reason he believed was because God regenerated him to be able. That must be pretty shocking to hear the first time, but after the new convert reads the stack of Reformed authors he is told to read, he is soon convinced that is exactly what happened to him, though he was completely unaware of it at the time.

"Jesus might love me, but I don't know, for John Piper says this is so"

Joke.

 

Agreed, and I'm asking where you believe it originated. The thought or intent to do evil had to originate/begin/start somewhere. Was it in God or his creature?

I understand, but my question is: Where did that desire to rebel originate? In God or the creature?

We both agree they were able, but that doesn't answer the question above, does it?

So, can I take that as an "I don't know?" If you don't know this then why couldn't you affirm the possibility of contra-causal free will (sometimes call libertarian freewill) and simply appeal to mystery as to its inner workings? That way you could affirm the CLEAR biblical teaching regarding God's holiness and separateness from sin in every regard.

Is it not possible that God created beings with the ability of first-cause choice, in that they can originate thoughts, desires and reason within themselves to make final determinations, in much the same way God does? Couldn't that be what separates us from the animals as being His image bearers? Must we reduce man's moral choices to animal instinct all so you can appeal to mystery anyway when it comes to the origin of evil choice?

 

Clearly you don't know calvinists/reformed/DoG brethren at all.

I'm one, and I preach like one, and I can honestly tell someone Jesus loves them, that He died for them, and am not left only with telling them to believe. But what is wrong with telling a person they need to believe?

After the person gets saved God tells them what happened, and many of them embrace the DoG's and reformed beliefs. :thumbsup:

The believer is attacked and assaulted on all sides for saying he trusted Christ? No. I know some that got saved who hated god, as a matter of fact, it's Scriptural to do so, because that is where lost men are, at warfare with God, haters of God, hostile in their minds toward God and much much more! I have seen you not like this before, and yet, you still don't seem to like this truth of mans state from within the Scriptures.

I get the idea you would mock and malign such for admitting this truth, for which they have Scriptures (haters of God &c)? Would that upset you they believe this? You seem pretty upset about it for sure.

The believer is told to read a stack of reformed authors? Why would that be wrong if it were the case (which it's not)? What would be incorrect with reading Berkhof, Edwards, Whitefield, Owen? Men who walked with God and preached to the saving of souls?

Yes, God regenerated them and enabled them to believe/receive! He even enables persons to love Him.

Yes, we are not completely aware of all that took place, theologically and Scripturally speaking, at the moment of salvation, but the beauty of this knowledge of what God did is read within the Scriptures and it is comforting.

Also Paul, in his epistles told Gods people exactly what happened when they were saved, explaining it to them in detail, especially in Ephesians, Colossians. You sound like you're saying you understood each and every theological thing that took place right at that moment, correct? ANd that it is ioncorrect to explain to them what happened at that moment they believed, correct? It is in fact what you are saying.

You knew all about being called, elected, sanctified, justified, and glorified, knew about foreknowledge, and could name and explain each one, correct?

- Peace

 

Impossible. If you are a true 5 Point Calvinist who believes Limited Atonement, then you cannot honestly tell ANYBODY that Jesus died for them. You can't, because you don't know that it is true.

Fact is, if you believe in Limited Atonement, you cannot possibly know Jesus died for YOU.

The gospel is more than simply believeing Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead. You must believe Jesus died for YOUR sins.

I do not see how anybody can truly believe on Jesus unless they know for a FACT that Jesus died for THEIR SINS personally. If I did not know for a fact that Jesus died for ME, I would be in constant fear and doubt.

But thank God, the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus died for ALL MEN without exception, so I know the atonement is not limited and covers me.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this a thread where iconoclast wanted to engage arminians and non cal's?

I think we see where some of the error happens when gleening instructions from the Bible when some cannot follow simple instructions here.

 

I have an issue with "allow a sinner to repent" when He specifically commands it. Where God guides He provides, and has done so already with His desire that man repents. He doesn't command all men to repent while "allowing" the few to actually do it.