Asleep in Jesus

I'm impressed with your thoughts here and the possible implications that they might bring to the text.

I'm not sure that I can honestly offer anything of real value at this time but you've given me a wonderful moment to reflect on these verses in a new light and to ponder what this might reveal.

Thank you Sir and God Bless.

 

I think this has been used to justify "soul sleep" but I would say that the use of "sleep" and "dead" was probably used to distinguish the spirits of the saved dead from their reunified, quickened, and glorified flesh.

 

Hi Brother Bob,

I hope we find you well and at peace in the Lord today! I have a few moments while at lunch to make a few remarks on this intriguing post although I am not sure where you where going with this on first blush I found it thought provoking.

I'm sure you are aware of the 'general teaching' on these verses that the Apostle Paul uses the term 'asleep', as Scott was so astute to pointed out, to speak to the congregation of Thessalonica concerning those members in the Church who have passed on (i.e. died).

I get the impression most scholars derive this from the later half of verse 13 where such sleeping would cause 'sorrow' in others which have no hope'. From this key verse I get the impression that scholar deduce that Paul is speaking of the sorrow typically accompanied those who have witnessed the death of loved ones and had no hope of life after death.

The interpretation of this verse appears to setup one's interpretation of the rest of the passage. Of course, you notice that Paul later, in verse 16, uses the proper term 'dead' without any further allusion to them being 'asleep' which does appear to confuse matters doesn't it?

Understanding this apparent break one could conclude that those 'asleep' could mean something else other then literally being dead. Is this where you were going?

If so, I do believe the idea is rather intriguing and I thought about this afternoon and did a little reading over lunch to reach my own conclusion. I am appreciative at your keen provocation in this because I greatly enjoyed pondering it. Thanks again.

Ultimately, though I believe the popular opinion of the scholars on this passage is the correct one and I will attempt to share with you why I've reach that conclusion. Perhaps my rationale is flawed so I'd like for you to check it for me.

The reason I believe that 'those asleep' are 'those who have passed away' is this last part in the verse 'in Jesus'. If 'those asleep' are those who have not be 'awakened' to the Gospel and thus made 'alive' in Christ I have great difficultly believing Paul would articulate them as being 'asleep in Jesus'. Of course I'm only guessing that this might be where you were going with this but it's one interpretation which 'jumped' out at me on first blush.

So as it stands with me, those whom Paul was speaking as being asleep are those Christians who have dead before the expectant Second Coming of our Lord and Saviour.

With regards to your comments I can only suggest that your assumption is one share by many including me.

Please note that both 1 and 2 Thessalonians dealt with misunderstandings with the Second Coming of our Lord.

Here it has been historically interpreted that Paul is trying to allay concerns that those who will actually be present for the Second Coming would in no way precede or have advantage over those who have fallen asleep and that those who have fallen asleep will have no disadvantage for having not lived till that faithful day.

So here we are rolling along with a pretty ironclad interpretation and we encounter the use of the word 'dead'! Have we been led astray by Paul apparent use of 'asleep' as an allusion to those who are literally 'dead'?

Well it's possible but it is my belief that Paul was exercising pastoral care in using the allusion 'asleep' until he had allayed concern for those who are literally dead up until this point. Why stop now you might ask? Well I believe he feels he's established his case for those are are literally 'dead in Christ' to be risen with Him. With such news there simply is no real reason to remain concerned or sorrowful.

So here Paul delivers the good news all Christians have the hope of reunion with loved ones in heaven! Amen!

Now that is something which could serve to comfort one another.

Honestly I would love to hear your interpretation on it as well as anything which you think that I have overlooked.

Thank you Sir and God Bless.

 

I don't know, I don't think when Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with Me in paradise", he had a long nap planned.

 

Ouch! Did I leave that impression Webdog or are your replying to Brother Bob? If I left that impression I would like to address it because that is not my intension at all.

 

not you, bound, I was replying to the OP in general by BB.

 

The "dead in Christ" have died to themselves and are alive unto God, that came about by their getting saved.

Those people who make up the Body of Christ are raised to new life, but their bodies are not dead, for they are still alive and walking and breathing.

The ones who are "asleep" is speaking of the body that died, but not the eternal soul, for that is present with the Lord.

If one studies the word "sheol" which means the grave, also meaning "hell", they will see that those saved are not in "hell"/ sheol/ the grave.

Now if one believes in purgatory.......

These passages are dealing with a literal physical ressurrection of the incorruptable body, not the soul, nor the spirit who are already in Christ, who just so happens to not be in any grave.

It is those incorruptable bodies that we will occupy for eternity and return riding the white hosres to reign with Jesus for the Millenial Reign.

 

I think, as far as believers are concerned, "sleep" and "physical death" are synonymous. I think that the authors used the word "sleep" because we have eternal life. We never really die. Only our flesh dies. I think it's a red herring to suggest that because the Bible also says "the dead in Christ rise" that we had to be dead in some way other than what it means to be "asleep" (our bodies died). Dead, asleep, for the believer it's the same diff.

For example:

This makes absolutely no sense if both words "die" mean exactly the same thing.

Short version: I think this is a non-issue.

 

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, ( Heb 12:1 a cloud of witnesses,) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, (Jesus) having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (rapture)

This "white cloud" is the souls of the saved, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, beside the "soul" never dies.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Coming with Jesus, they are first Rapture, then we are "changed".


BOB

Those souls under the altar are those saints killed during the trib, the next Angel to come out of the temple.

Re 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

Jesus preached to those who died prior to his coming and them led them "captive" as he ascended to heaven, so "Abraham's Bosom", was "clean out" at that time,

Prior to Jesus, souls went to Abraham's bosom, since then they are "with the lord". (wages of sin paid)

Those under the altar are "killed for the testimony of christ" during the trib.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they will have "Moses and the Prophet" (Elijah), the "two witnesses".

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

Your problem, Bob, is that you're not interpreting things allegorically. When the Bible says "slain" it is just a symbolic representation of having gone on a sleigh ride. The word of God here represents the fact that many see "God" as a type of Santa Claus. So in this case when it says they were slain for the word of God, it really means they took a sleigh ride to the north pole to visit Santa Claus.

Are you getting this down?



Origen would be proud.

 

No I made it up. It's in the great tradition of Origen. To translate of his more famous quotes: "The Bible is of no use to those who read it for what it says when it is much more fun to make it say anything you want by reading it allegorically."

By the way, I'm not poking fun at you, Bob. I'm poking fun at those who read the Bible as allegory and as a result come up with the most bizarre doctrines. Even though we disagree strongly about many things, I don't think you do that.

 

Well, you might be surprised to learn that I don't totally diagree with you.

If you read the link I've posted, you'll find that scripture has a "Dual application", one to cover Jesus's "Spiritual coming" and the same verse will also cover his "literal coming".

Because of this "Preterist" see Revelation as having already occurred, while the Church still sees it as future, both are 50% right.

The "Spiritual" opening of the first seal was Jesus revealing the Antichrist.

Joh 17:12 but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Of course the "Literal opening" will be when he appears after the rapture.

2Th 2:3 and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I haven't made any effort to sort out all the seals, or even study the trib period, "I won't be here".

The Jews were invited to the "Lamb's marraige supper" and refused, so everyone who is "in heaven" between Jesus's coming and rapture, are at the lambs wedding, no one under the altar, after the rapture, is when the AC begins killing people, especially Jew who come to believe in Jesus, the same ones who refused the invitation to the lamb marraige, these are the one under the altar, and not at the wedding.

The Lamb's marriage take plce during the trib, the "remarriage" between God/Israel, takes place in "CANA", during the MK, Jesus and his disciples (Bride) are invited, and the "MOTHER" of Jesus is there.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the "WOMAN" (Israel) which brought forth the man child. (Jesus)

God being married to Israel, and making a wedding for his son, two wedding, but you have to understand it in context of the "Trinity".

 

Ac 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

They don't know just how true their "idle words" of "hearing it again" will come to pass.