Atonement: Prevailing Roman Catholic view

[Michael Wrenn]

I hope our resident Roman Catholics will contribute to this thread, and I hope I can contribute; I will as much as I can, considering our current situation. I have rediscovered how much I love discussing theology.

What is the prevailing current Roman Catholic view of the atonement? And by current, I'd say in the last 50 years or so. Is there any theologian whose view is more prevalent -- Athanasius, Anselm, Augustine, Aquinas, some modern theologian, such as Karl Rahner? Also, is Peter Abelard's view followed by many?

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to responses, by Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics.

 

[DaChaser1]

I hope our resident Roman Catholics will contribute to this thread, and I hope I can contribute; I will as much as I can, considering our current situation. I have rediscovered how much I love discussing theology.

What is the prevailing current Roman Catholic view of the atonement? And by current, I'd say in the last 50 years or so. Is there any theologian whose view is more prevalent -- Athanasius, Anselm, Augustine, Aquinas, some modern theologian, such as Karl Rahner? Also, is Peter Abelard's view followed by many?

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to responses, by Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics.

the death of christ made it possible for God to save sinners, but ONLY if they avail themselves of the meritorial saraments of grace given to the RCC by god in order to be able to save us!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't think its changed. Here is an excerpt.

the Atonement is the Satisfaction of Christ, whereby God and the world are reconciled or made to be at one. "For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19). The Catholic doctrine on this subject is set forth in the sixth Session of the Council of Trent, chapter ii. Having shown the insufficiency of Nature, and of Mosaic Law the Council continues:

Whence it came to pass, that the Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1, 3), when that blessed fullness of the time was come (Galatians 4:4) sent unto men Jesus Christ, His own Son who had been, both before the Law and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice might attain to justice and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).

 

[DaChaser1]

I don't think its changed. Here is an excerpt.

Forgot to add the meritorial saramental syatem that God uses per RCC to make a sinner close enough to image of chrsit to allow God to justify him at that time!

Also forgot that sacrament of baptism washes away original sin, and regenrates a baby into the RCC, "Body of Christ"

Forgot that a person can commit a mortal Sin and risk being in state to forfeit their salvation...


Seems that their is more to the RCC view than was recorded here!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Forgot to add the meritorial saramental syatem that God uses per RCC to make a sinner close enough to image of chrsit to allow God to justify him at that time!

Also forgot that sacrament of baptism washes away original sin, and regenrates a baby into the RCC, "Body of Christ"

Forgot that a person can commit a mortal Sin and risk being in state to forfeit their salvation...


Seems that their is more to the RCC view than was recorded here!

When you understand what we are talking about with Sacraments and understand what we are saying btw which I explianed to you in the other attonement thread then we can talk. Otherwize you are spouting nonsense.

 

[DaChaser1]

When you understand what we are talking about with Sacraments and understand what we are saying btw which I explianed to you in the other attonement thread then we can talk. Otherwize you are spouting nonsense.

What else can add to the blood of jesus shed in death upon the Cross for sins?

One never loses relationship, just their fellowship is put on hold by willful sins acted upon...

the Just shall live by their faith...

Again, what else does God require for us to do to get saved and kept saved?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

the death of christ made it possible for God to save sinners, but ONLY if they avail themselves of the meritorial saraments of grace given to the RCC by god in order to be able to save us!

Don't you think you are being harsh and unnecessarily inflammatory?

I have strong differences with Roman Catholicism, and I let myself get carried away sometimes with my criticism, but I was hoping this could be a constructive and informative post.

Actually, there is some RC influence on the atonement theories of the Magisterial Reformers. And there is no RC atonement theory that I disagree with as much as I do Calvin's penal substitution.

 

[Melanie]

Goodness me....here I am a resident Catholic and I am completely nonplussed by such high faluttin' talk....

I shall continue to cook for the priory and go to Mass as often as I can and love my neighbour.....let you fellas beat the juice out of scripture.

:smilewinkgrin::laugh::1_grouphug:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What else can add to the blood of jesus shed in death upon the Cross for sins?

I've told you once, I've told you a million times. Nothing.

One never loses relationship, just their fellowship is put on hold by willful sins acted upon

To believe one never looses a relationship is naive. You see it in human relationships all the time. Willful sin (and let me add another aspect to the type of sin I'm talking about) that has serious matter such as adultery, murder, etc... is purposeful rebellion against God. It is saying "God, I want to go against you in my life in this area so I defy you!" That does more than put the relationship on hold.

the Just shall live by their faith...

No disagreement there but faith is acted upon it doesn't exist in a vacuum. For instance you are standing on train tracks and your friend tells you there is a train coming. If you had faith in what your friend says you would step off the tracks and avoid the train. That is faith in your friend. If you say "yep there is a possibility that surely a train will come" but ignore his urgency that is not faith. To have faith is to obey the will of the Father. Jesus says those who DO the will of the Father are his family. Not the one who agrees that there is a father and suppose he has a will.

Again, what else does God require for us to do to get saved and kept saved

God requires our acceptance of his gift. And as Jesus said to abide in him. Consider these verses.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned

If we agree the fire is symbolism for hell then it becomes clear those who do not remain in him are eternally removed from him.

but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved

and again

You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised

 

[DaChaser1]

I've told you once, I've told you a million times. Nothing.

To believe one never looses a relationship is naive. You see it in human relationships all the time. Willful sin (and let me add another aspect to the type of sin I'm talking about) that has serious matter such as adultery, murder, etc... is purposeful rebellion against God. It is saying "God, I want to go against you in my life in this area so I defy you!" That does more than put the relationship on hold.

Again, WHAT can seperate the saved from the love of God in Christ?
NOTHING!

the Cross allowed God to forever justify a sinner, to make them a saint, and we never lose that relationship, as its the work of God!
Sins we commit after salvation bring chaistasment from God, purpose to bring us back to the father and coness our sins, as that restores the fellowship!

No disagreement there but faith is acted upon it doesn't exist in a vacuum. For instance you are standing on train tracks and your friend tells you there is a train coming. If you had faith in what your friend says you would step off the tracks and avoid the train. That is faith in your friend. If you say "yep there is a possibility that surely a train will come" but ignore his urgency that is not faith. To have faith is to obey the will of the Father. Jesus says those who DO the will of the Father are his family. Not the one who agrees that there is a father and suppose he has a will.

We do good works to please and honor the Father, NOT inorder to get or stay saved!

God requires our acceptance of his gift. And as Jesus said to abide in him. Consider these verses.
If we agree the fire is symbolism for hell then it becomes clear those who do not remain in him are eternally removed from him.

NO! jesus stating here that those NOT SAVED are thrown into the fire, NOT meaning saved and then lost!

and again

Think that you fail to see that we are secured by God Into Body of Christ, and that there is both a relationship and fellowship aspect to our salvation, and our sins mess up thefellowship until we confess the sins, but not the relationship aspect!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Think that you fail to see that we are secured by God Into Body of Christ, and that there is both a relationship and fellowship aspect to our salvation, and our sins mess up thefellowship until we confess the sins, but not the relationship aspect!

Ask yourself this very simple question. Jesus tells people that if they do not remain in him they will be cast out into the fire. How can then some one be asked to remain if they were never in him to begin with? It is not possible thus only people who have been saved are the subject of this verse.

 

[DaChaser1]

Ask yourself this very simple question. Jesus tells people that if they do not remain in him they will be cast out into the fire. How can then some one be asked to remain if they were never in him to begin with? It is not possible thus only people who have been saved are the subject of this verse.

Answer this question!

jesus said that ALL those that the Father gave Him will be kept by power of His father, and that jesus will rise up ALL in last day, NONE given him will get lost!

Was jesus speaking the truth here or not?

also, some good conservative commentators on that passage you cited have suggested that we misunderstood jesus regarding that, as his point was the father would come and lift up the btanch not producing ggod fruit and 'weed it" "prune it" in order TO get good fruit!

 

[billwald]

>Ask yourself this very simple question. Jesus tells people that if they do not remain in him they will be cast out into the fire. How can then some one be asked to remain if they were never in him to begin with? It is not possible thus only people who have been saved are the subject of this verse.

UNLESS "saved" is the null case.

 

[DaChaser1]

Ask yourself this very simple question. Jesus tells people that if they do not remain in him they will be cast out into the fire. How can then some one be asked to remain if they were never in him to begin with? It is not possible thus only people who have been saved are the subject of this verse.

have to compare that to ALL of His sayings on saved getting lost again...

NTHER VERSE even mentions or supports from jesus those whom god saves can be be lost again!

So biblcal interpretation requires another explanation, as a doctrine needs more than a single isolated support verse!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

have to compare that to ALL of His sayings on saved getting lost again...

NTHER VERSE even mentions or supports from jesus those whom god saves can be be lost again!

So biblcal interpretation requires another explanation, as a doctrine needs more than a single isolated support verse!

No other verse?
OT
2 Chronicals

But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman

Deuteronomy

If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. ...

NT
2 Peter

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Did you say Jesus didn't say in another verse about falling away? How about this one

And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away

Note they believe for awhile. I thought all you need was to believe once and heaven was guaranteed. I guess not. According to this verse you can once believe and then fall away.

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

How can you depart from the faith if you never had it? You can't. You have to have faith in order to depart from it.

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

It says there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins which means it was already given to the person but then lost it because they didn't change their lifestyles and kept on sinning. These are but a few verses out of many.

 

[DaChaser1]

No other verse?
OT
2 Chronicals

Deuteronomy

OT believers in coming messiah were NOT sealed by the Holy Spirit as NT saints now are...

We have the sealing that guarentees that we will be stavlished firmly by the Lord and saved unto the End!

SAME Lord that saved us will also keep us and make us enduring unto the End..

NT
2 Peter

Peter, as well as Jude, were refercing false teachers among the bthren teaching heresies!

Did you say Jesus didn't say in another verse about falling away? How about this one
Note they believe for awhile. I thought all you need was to believe once and heaven was guaranteed. I guess not. According to this verse you can once believe and then fall away.

jesus said that He WOULD raise up in last days ALL those whom were savd by God, NONE would get lost!

jesus would not disagree with Himself!

How can you depart from the faith if you never had it? You can't. You have to have faith in order to depart from it.

It says there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins which means it was already given to the person but then lost it because they didn't change their lifestyles and kept on sinning. These are but a few verses out of many.

wrong again!
Hebrews was referring to those who were denying their need to have atonemnt per jesus the Messiah, but were willingto go back to Jewish temple and OT sacrifices... His point to them was that thsoe OT sacrifices were made null and void by final sacrifice of Christ, so to deny THAT sacrifice and stay in OT system would bring condemnation, as "they denied and trampled underfoot precious blood of Son of God!" [q/quote]

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No other verse?
OT
2 Chronicals

Deuteronomy

NT
2 Peter
Did you say Jesus didn't say in another verse about falling away? How about this one
Note they believe for awhile. I thought all you need was to believe once and heaven was guaranteed. I guess not. According to this verse you can once believe and then fall away.

How can you depart from the faith if you never had it? You can't. You have to have faith in order to depart from it.

It says there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins which means it was already given to the person but then lost it because they didn't change their lifestyles and kept on sinning. These are but a few verses out of many.

Excellent response!

I think the fundamentalists and Calvinists here are driving me to Catholicism. :laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

Excellent response!

I think the fundamentalists and Calvinists here are driving me to Catholicism. :laugh:

Why?

NONE of his responses were applicable to this discussion, as they either reffered to false teachers with wrong doctrines among the flock, or else misunderstanding of the verses!