Atonement

[Michael Wrenn]

Wasnt Menno a RC Priest prior to his conversion?

Yes, he was.

Menno was a remarkable man and a heroic one.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Christus Victor is the atonement view of the EOC and has been from ancient times. It is not the predominant view of the RCC.

You're welcome for the tip.

What is the EOC?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

What is the EOC?

Eastern Orthodox Church

 

[billwald]

My problem with the EOC is that it has never recovered from the destruction of Constantinople centuries ago. It they have a unique truth they are not getting the word out.

A person I know who has a PhD in Bible languages recently went to the top of Mt Athos. He reported your EOC Saints were mostly illiterate in every language.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Christus Victor is the atonement view of the EOC and has been from ancient times. It is not the predominant view of the RCC.

You're welcome for the tip.

It would be more accurate to say that it only holds a part of the Catholic view. That indeed Jesus' unites himself to humanity and God has no need of paying a "ransom" to the devil or is incapable of forgiveness without blood sacrifice. But does have a requirement to his justice. Accordingly on these systems of belief about attonment we say

But it may be observed that the truth which they contain is already found in the Catholic theology of the Atonement. That great doctrine has been faintly set forth in figures taken from man's laws and customs. It is represented as the payment of a price, or a ransom, or as the offering of satisfaction for a debt. But we can never rest in these material figures as though they were...adequate. As both Abelard and Bernard remind us, the Atonement is the work of love. It is essentially a sacrifice, the one supreme sacrifice of which the rest were but types and figures. And, as St. Augustine teaches us, the outward rite of Sacrifice is the sacrament, or sacred sign, of the invisible sacrifice of the heart. It was by this inward sacrifice of obedience unto death, by this perfect love with which He laid down his life for His friends, that Christ paid the debt to justice, and taught us by His example, and drew all things to Himself; it was by this that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, "making peace through the blood of His Cross".

 

[Yeshua1]

Here are two articles on the atonement. I totally reject all Western theories; my views are those of the Eastern church, and many Anabaptists -- the oldest views of the atonement. I'm not posting this to start a mudslinging contest but just to show where I stand and why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement

Who did jesus pay the sin debt to?

Who is the God over all creation?

Who is the Being who NEVER reliquished control over creation to at ANY time?

Hint...

Same as Father of Jesus!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who did jesus pay the sin debt to?

Who is the God over all creation?

Who is the Being who NEVER reliquished control over creation to at ANY time?

Hint...

Same as Father of Jesus!

God love you brother.....when you get righteous & passionate....well, you do throw it out there :thumbs::laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, he was.

Menno was a remarkable man and a heroic one.

BIG problem with any atonememnt theory that denies a penal substititionary death of jesus is that it means that His death did NOT make actual/real atonement for anys sins, only a potential payment!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

BIG problem with any atonememnt theory that denies a penal substititionary death of jesus is that it means that His death did NOT make actual/real atonement for anys sins, only a potential payment!

.... THUS, ITS A TRUE LIMITED ATONEMENT, Correct! LOL

YES...the Romans 8 Argument! In other words Yeshua, you want a SAVIOR who actually saves....not one that dies as a token so that you can go & save yourself.....yes, what assurance is derived there?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yeshua and EWF: That is just not true.

I have never seen such misunderstanding of the Christus Victor view as I've seen on here.

You all need to study the CV view to see what it is actually teaching.