Baptism

[Iamodd4God]

I was asked if I believe that a person needs to be baptized to be saved. I believe what the Bible says is true, and what the Bible says is...

John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If a sinner MUST be baptized to be saved, then why isn't baptism mentioned anywhere in the passages I quoted above? If baptism is a MUST as some people declare, then wouldn't these passages say: "That whosoever believeth in him AND IS BAPTIZED should not perish..." and "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him AND IS BAPTIZED should not perish, but have everlasting life." and "He that believeth on him AND IS BAPTIZED is not condemned:" and "because he hath not believed AND WAS BAPTIZED in the name of the only begotten Son of God." These passages doesn't include baptism, because baptism is NOT what is needed for salvation.

The apostle Paul was asked by the jailer: "What must I do to be saved?" The apostle Paul answered his question saying: "Believe on the Lord Christ, and you will be saved." If baptism is a MUST for a sinner to become saved, then the apostle Paul would surely have said so to the jailer (Acts 16:30-31).

So no, I do not believe that a sinner has to be baptized to become saved; I believe that the only thing a person has to do to be saved is BELIEVE (have faith) on Jesus Christ.

BUT what about AFTER a sinner becomes saved? Is baptism a must then? Absolutely! Jesus commanded it...

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

...so baptism is a MUST AFTER a person becomes saved. Just as REPENTANCE is a MUST, Just as obeying the commandments is a MUST, but these things are NOT done to become saved, these things are done AFTER becoming saved.

A person doesn't have to repent to become saved, but repentance is an absolute must if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven...

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

A person doesn't have to obey the commandments to become saved, but obedience to the commandments is an absolute must if you want to enter eternal life...

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

EVERYONE regardless of their physical capabilities is ABLE to repent, and obey God's commandments. Not everyone is physically capable of getting baptized, HOWEVER, God knows who "CAN" and who "CAN'T" be baptized.

If you "CAN" be baptized, and you refuse to do so, then you are intentionally disobeying a direct commandment of Jesus. I made the comment in another post that if a person "CAN" be baptized, but refuses to do so; I would say that such a person is not saved. NOT that such a person was never saved to begin with, but rather such a person would be giving up their position in Christ by their act of disobedience.

If you "CAN" be baptized, then do it!

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Zenas]

I was asked if I believe that a person needs to be baptized to be saved. I believe what the Bible says is true, and what the Bible says is...

John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish . . . .

If a sinner MUST be baptized to be saved, then why isn't baptism mentioned anywhere in the passages I quoted above? If baptism is a MUST as some people declare, then wouldn't these passages say: "That whosoever believeth in him AND IS BAPTIZED should not perish..."

"He who has believed AND HAS BEEN BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 16:16. Do you like John 3:16 more than Mark 16:16?

 

[Eliyahu]

...so baptism is a MUST AFTER a person becomes saved. Just as REPENTANCE is a MUST, Just as obeying the commandments is a MUST, but these things are NOT done to become saved, these things are done AFTER becoming saved.


Ken

You are very much correct in most of your statements.

Baptism is a must after Salvation.

Baptism is not the pre-requisite for the salvation.

One can go to the Heaven without Baptism ( e.g. Robber at the Cross)

Repentance is the pre-requisite for the Salvation

Obedience to the Commandments can be done only after one is born again.

Even before the Salvation, one can do something useful which is the Repentance.

Baptism is the most important starting point of all the obedience after salvation, one time experience after the salvation, which is the public declaration and confirmation of what the very person believed already, Death with Christ and Resurrection with Him.

Baptism doesn't bring the person to the Salvation. ( There can be many, many fake Christians who were baptized but not born again !)
Baptism is performed to the person who was already SAVED, who was already born again.

I don't find anything wrong in your statements at all, Sorry.:thumbs:

 

[Darron Steele]

Ken, I am with you on all of this. I came to your conclusion in December of 1998.

If you want more evidence for our agreed view, go to Part4 on church unity study, linked www.geocities.com/steeledl/unity2.html .

Of course, "Mark 16:16" -- granting that material after Mark 16:8 is actually authentic -- does not negate John 3:16-8. "Mark 16:16" does not say `He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not or believeth and is baptized not shall be condemned.' Some people imagine six extra words where there are none.

 

[Darron Steele]

However, would you not agree that repentance is part of belief? If a person really believes the Gospel, s/he knows s/he needs to be saved from sin, meaning that s/he knows sin is wrong. Would not acknowleding that /she needs to turn from it be part of believing the Gospel? I think so.

 

[Zenas]

Of course, "Mark 16:16" -- granting that material after Mark 16:8 is actually authentic -- does not negate John 3:16-8. "Mark 16:16" does not say `He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not or believeth and is baptized not shall be condemned.' Some people imagine six extra words where there are none.

Darron, I'm having trouble following you on this. Could you try saying this a different way so I can figure out what you mean? Also, which six extra words are you referring to?

 

[Zenas]

However, would you not agree that repentance is part of belief? If a person really believes the Gospel, s/he knows s/he needs to be saved from sin, meaning that s/he knows sin is wrong. Would not acknowleding that /she needs to turn from it be part of believing the Gospel? I think so.

Repentance is very closely associated with belief, so close that it should be regarded as a part of belief. But it is not exactly the same thing. One believes and, on account of his belief, he then repents, i.e., rejects his old system of beliefs.

 

[Iamodd4God]

"He who has believed AND HAS BEEN BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 16:16. Do you like John 3:16 more than Mark 16:16?

Yes I do like John 3:16 better than Mark 16:16, because Mark 16:9-20 was not in the original manuscripts, which means they were "ADDED" to the Bible during one of the many times it was translated.

Again John 3:16 says: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that anyone who "BELIEVES" in Him should "NOT PERISH" but "HAVE ETERNAL LIFE". No mention of baptism mentioned anywhere; if baptism were necessary surely it would have been mentioned here.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[David Lamb]

Darron, I'm having trouble following you on this. Could you try saying this a different way so I can figure out what you mean? Also, which six extra words are you referring to?

I took Darron to mean that Mark 16.16 does not say:

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe and he who believes but is not baptized will be condemned."​

But it does say:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

He quoted the verse from the AV/KJV, so the six extra words he added to that verse to make his point were:

or believeth and is baptized not​

That is, the equivalent of my "he who believes but is not baptized" above.

 

[Iamodd4God]

One can go to the Heaven without Baptism ( e.g. Robber at the Cross)

Yes, the criminal on the cross was one of those that "CAN'T" be baptized. But his example does not help those who "CAN" be baptized. For example; the Ethiopian in Acts 8:28-38 or the jailer in Acts 16:30-33. These were people that "CAN" be baptized, but what do you think the Apostle Philip or the apostle Paul would have said if they refused to be baptized?

Repentance is the pre-requisite for the Salvation

Let me clarify what I believe in regards to repentance. I believe that when a person chooses to accept the sacrifice God has provided for their sin(s) they have already chose to turn away from their sin(s), which is repentance. I actually believe that repenting, and placing your trust on Jesus is done at the same time.

Obedience to the Commandments can be done only after one is born again.

Well, a person can obey the commandments "BEFORE" they become born again, but it wouldn't amount to anything, because salvation cannot be earned. A person can sin, and then later in life start obeying the commandments, but if they NEVER place their trust on Jesus, they will go to the lake of fire. The proof of this are those who follow Judaism. How many Jews will find themselves in hell because although they obey the commandments, they never accepted Jesus? There are Jews to this day still waiting and looking for the Messiah. Praise God, some have, and are accepting the truth.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

However, would you not agree that repentance is part of belief? If a person really believes the Gospel, s/he knows s/he needs to be saved from sin, meaning that s/he knows sin is wrong. Would not acknowleding that /she needs to turn from it be part of believing the Gospel? I think so.

I do believe that repentance and trusting on Jesus is taken in the same step. I would have an issue with someone who would place their trust on Jesus, but not repent of their sin(s).

However, I also believe that there are people who repents of their sin(s), but don't believe in Jesus; the orthodox Jews who follow Judaisim supports my belief.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[BobRyan]

Repentance follows belief - belief follows conviction.

John 16 the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD -- but not all choose to follow that with BELIEF. For those that make that Choice "God GRANTS repentance".

 

[Eliyahu]

Well, a person can obey the commandments "BEFORE" they become born again, but it wouldn't amount to anything, because salvation cannot be earned. A person can sin, and then later in life start obeying the commandments, but if they NEVER place their trust on Jesus, they will go to the lake of fire. The proof of this are those who follow Judaism. How many Jews will find themselves in hell because although they obey the commandments, they never accepted Jesus? There are Jews to this day still waiting and looking for the Messiah. Praise God, some have, and are accepting the truth.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

This was your response to my statement that Obedience can start only after one is born again.

In human eyes, you may be correct. Jews are keeping the commandments even today. I know that very well as I worked for Jewish company and have many Jewish friends, and still have the fellowship with Messianic Jews.

However, they are not keeping the Law at all from God's point of view. If you talk with Jews, you can quickly find they have nothing to do with God, though they keep the commandments formally. They are not the men of God.

However, if you talk with Messianic Jews, they are like the Jews of the Early Church.

The non-Messianic, common Jews are like this man:

Mt 19
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

They believe that they are keeping all the commandments like this young Jew.

Even the Repentance is the same.

Before the Salvation, one can repent in groping after the Truth, but it is a kind of primitive type of Repentance with many errors in belief.
The true repentance is possible only with the assistance of Holy Spirit.
Even before the Holy Spirit enters a person, He works around him or her so that the person may be saved.
Repentance is the pre-requisite for the Salvation, but it continues even after the Salvation and is intensified with much more accuracy accuracy.

 

[J. Jump]

Ken,

Thank you for addressing my question. However, early on you said that obedience was a requirement to be saved. That's what promoted my question. So if you are going to continue to say that obedience is a requirement for salvation then baptism has to be included in that process.

Don't you agree?

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter seems pretty confident that baptism is a requirement.

So the question is, is obedience a requirement for someone to get saved? Or do you say obedience is a requirement to stay saved?

 

[BobRyan]

Repentance follows belief - belief follows conviction.

John 16 the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD -- but not all choose to follow that with BELIEF. For those that make that Choice "God GRANTS repentance".

Romans 10 makes it clear that the person is saved at the moment they believe and then confess Christ.

 

[Cutter]

A person doesn't have to repent to become saved, but repentance is an absolute must if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven...
In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Ken, I was going to disagree with this statement in your OP, with all of the verses pertaining to John preaching repentance for the remission of sins, until I read this verse,

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Overall good points made about the subject.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I haven't followed the whole discussion - only picked up from the the beginning, so may be speaking out of turn.

"He who has believed AND HAS BEEN BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 16:16.

Then what John said, without mentioning baptism, with the same result: 'Saved!'

We have discoursed on this before. I have maintained just what is said in Mk16:16 - to be baptised with that baptism that shall have the result : 'Saved!'

Obviously - open before one's eyes stands it there: Baptised with the effect and guaranteed result of being saved. So One MUST be 'baptised', in order to be saved. John says the very same truth, but he makes no mention of baptism. How? Because John PRESUPPOSES THE baptism THAT saves as well as Mark does!

Now before one's eyes there is NO mention made of being baptised either by the Church or in water. Mark, just like John, presupposes THAT baptism that SAVES, and THAT baptism IS NOT a baptism with or in water or by or through the Church. BOTH Gospels suppose the ONE and SAME baptism that SAVES, and THAT baptism MUST be the baptism by God Himself with Himself - the Holy Spirit. NOWHERE does the Gospels suppose or mention a water-baptism that saves!

For that reason does Mk16:7 continue: "SIGNS will follow" - 'signs' of Apostleship, that no one after the Apostles is allowed to presume. The Church thinks far too much of itself telling people it must baptise them, and that, in water - whether as a means to salvation or, as a sign, 'merely'. Because that 'sign' that followed - their (own) baptism - was the prerogative of the Apostles only. A pretending Church is against Christ; not for Christ. Water-baptism USED to be a mark of Apostleship and of the Authenticity of the Gospel. With the Apostles no more, water baptism ceased. Water baptism may not be used or be claimed to be the baptism with the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit - for only God can administer that baptism and that Power.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Repentance follows belief - belief follows conviction.

John 16 the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD -- but not all choose to follow that with BELIEF. For those that make that Choice "God GRANTS repentance".

Romans 10 makes it clear that the person is saved at the moment they believe and then confess Christ.

GE:

Absolutely!

Yet, what is BEHIND the person believing and confessing? There's what counts!

There are instances without count of such statements, the best-known of course, John 3:16. "If it is found someone believes in Him -- that one shall not perish, but, it is found, that one, has everlasting life already."

Here we have another of that Subjunctive of absolute a priori fact! He 'may' not only be saved, but for ever has been saved!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ken,

Thank you for addressing my question. However, early on you said that obedience was a requirement to be saved. That's what promoted my question. So if you are going to continue to say that obedience is a requirement for salvation then baptism has to be included in that process.

Don't you agree?

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter seems pretty confident that baptism is a requirement.

So the question is, is obedience a requirement for someone to get saved? Or do you say obedience is a requirement to stay saved?

GE:


Saying, "Peter seems pretty confident that baptism is a requirement", is not correct, nor true! 'Peter seems pretty confident that to "be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", is correct, and the only truth contained in his saying.

See in exactly this the very method and means by which Peter, as it were, 'baptised', the (believing) hearers "IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ"! His method and his means were Peter's proclamation - his 'going' and his 'preaching' "The Name of Jesus Christ"! By their hearing and receiving of the WORD -- of God! -, they were 'baptised'. Peter's was the only way remaining for the Church to also 'baptise'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

One can only believe by that, and in, that eternal life in which one already stands by grace, and by grace, already lives.