You -- and I -- might better be taught by God!
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Baptismal regeneration....
- Thread starter AAA
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Which is the prerogative of the Holy Spirit - and to which end, water-baptism is useless, and the baptism of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, is indispensible.
I know in Whom I have believed; I know in Whom to put my trust; I know in Whom I rejoice. I don't need water-baptism in any of it, and don't offend the Author and Finisher of our faith in it, for I believe: Soli Deo gloria, sola fidei, sola Scriptura, SOLUS CHRISTUS! It is Christ ALONE, and NOTHING besides!
Eliyahu said:
Unfortunately water baptism is no such thing. It produces false assumptions among the unsaved, and gives way to emotionalism that is misinterpreted as spirituality among the enlightened.
Misunderstandings surrounding Baptism:
1. Baptismal Regeneration - Salvation by Baptism.
Being Born Again is achieved by Baptism.
Wrong !
2. Infant Baptism - No Baptism for Infants deprives the babies of the Salvation - Wrong ! ( This brings a lot of unbelievers into the churches)
3. No Baptism is necessary - Wrong!
4. Baptism by Sprinkling or pouring - Wrong!
Credo-Baptism by Immersion ( Believers Baptism after the confession of Faith by Immersion) : CORRECT.
1. Baptismal Regeneration - Salvation by Baptism.
Being Born Again is achieved by Baptism.
Wrong !
2. Infant Baptism - No Baptism for Infants deprives the babies of the Salvation - Wrong ! ( This brings a lot of unbelievers into the churches)
3. No Baptism is necessary - Wrong!
4. Baptism by Sprinkling or pouring - Wrong!
Credo-Baptism by Immersion ( Believers Baptism after the confession of Faith by Immersion) : CORRECT.
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Oasis said:
Are you saying that there are parts of the NT that I can disregard?
What does the word "and" mean?
OK.
CA
Darron Steele
New Member
I believe you will find that there is no biblical inerrantist here who would suggest that any part of Scripture can be disregarded.CarpentersApprentice said:
This reminds me of a common Church of Christ debating tactic. I realize that it is very common, and very commonly approved, to try to make others appear to not believe the Bible -- even when the accuser knows differently.
I hope such conduct not fitting for Christians is not where you were going.
Darron Steele
New Member
Part 1
Main sources: Hyphenation is from Charles B. Williams, The New Testament in the Language of the People, page 261. "And-so" is from Greek kai and is one of its meanings (Vine et al, Expository Dictionary, page 694 NT). Another source is the consensus of a number of Spanish and Portuguese translations; these languages have more nuanced verb forms than English does, and can better reflect the nuances of Greek verbs.
This was in a sermon at a Jewish festival, and ancient Judaism viewed conversion baptisms as `washing away’ previous life.* These Jewish converts were to `wash away' their prior lives of rebellion against God.
*So That’s Why! Bible, page 1287.
The application for us: we are to repent for the remission of our sins. We are obligated by such repentance to be baptized.
Acts 22:16
1. A modern literal Spanish translation: “Y ahora, ¿por qué te detienes? Levánte y sé bautizado, y lava tus pecados invocando su nombre” (LBLA) = “And now, for what to-you you-detain? Let-you-rise and you-be baptized, and wash your sins invoking His name.”
2. The old 1560 English Geneva Bible in its 1602 revision: "Now therefore why tariest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sinnes, in calling on the Name of the Lord" (GenB).
3. The 1568 English Bishops’ Bible: “And nowe why taryest thou? aryse, & be baptized, & wasshe away thy sinnes, in calling on the name of the Lorde” (BishB).
Literally, it is “Levantandote, bautízate” = “Rising-you, make-you-baptized”* then Greek kai translated "and" here, and then the rest of the verse. The Greek conjunction distinguishes the former double command from the remainder.
*Lacueva, Nuevo Testamento Interlineal Griego-Español, page 571; English translations mine.
Paul would “wash away” his sins by “calling on the name of the Lord” in faith, referring to Joel 2:32 quoted in Romans 10:13 “for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (ASV).
Acts 2:38a “You-people-must-repent-you -- and-so let-s/he-be-baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ -- in-order-for the pardon/remission of you-people’s sins”CarpentersApprentice said:
Main sources: Hyphenation is from Charles B. Williams, The New Testament in the Language of the People, page 261. "And-so" is from Greek kai and is one of its meanings (Vine et al, Expository Dictionary, page 694 NT). Another source is the consensus of a number of Spanish and Portuguese translations; these languages have more nuanced verb forms than English does, and can better reflect the nuances of Greek verbs.
This was in a sermon at a Jewish festival, and ancient Judaism viewed conversion baptisms as `washing away’ previous life.* These Jewish converts were to `wash away' their prior lives of rebellion against God.
*So That’s Why! Bible, page 1287.
The application for us: we are to repent for the remission of our sins. We are obligated by such repentance to be baptized.
Acts 22:16
1. A modern literal Spanish translation: “Y ahora, ¿por qué te detienes? Levánte y sé bautizado, y lava tus pecados invocando su nombre” (LBLA) = “And now, for what to-you you-detain? Let-you-rise and you-be baptized, and wash your sins invoking His name.”
2. The old 1560 English Geneva Bible in its 1602 revision: "Now therefore why tariest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sinnes, in calling on the Name of the Lord" (GenB).
3. The 1568 English Bishops’ Bible: “And nowe why taryest thou? aryse, & be baptized, & wasshe away thy sinnes, in calling on the name of the Lorde” (BishB).
Literally, it is “Levantandote, bautízate” = “Rising-you, make-you-baptized”* then Greek kai translated "and" here, and then the rest of the verse. The Greek conjunction distinguishes the former double command from the remainder.
*Lacueva, Nuevo Testamento Interlineal Griego-Español, page 571; English translations mine.
Paul would “wash away” his sins by “calling on the name of the Lord” in faith, referring to Joel 2:32 quoted in Romans 10:13 “for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (ASV).
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Darron Steele
New Member
Part 2
1 Corinthians 6:11 refers to what Titus 3:5 Acts 10:34-48+11:4-17+15:8-9 refer to.
In the latter, we have descriptions of an occurrence where a Jewish-Christian apostle converts a group of Gentiles for the first time. This is after Peter’s first sermon to Jews in Acts 2, and this event was of such significance that it is gone over three times in the Book of Acts. The lead-up to this account includes an explanation in Acts 11:14 where Cornelius was told that Peter would “bring you a message though which you and all your household will be saved” (TNIV). In this account Acts 10:43b-4 says “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word” (ASV). This was before the converts said anything, and before Peter “commanded them to be baptized” (ESV) in Acts 10:48. The passage says that to “believeth on him” brings “remission of sins.”
This event was gone over three times in Scripture. When Peter recalled the occasion at Acts 15:8-9, he said “And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV). Titus 3:5 refers to the same when it says "according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and |renovación = renovation| of the Holy Spirit" (ASV|NVI and translated|ASV).
At 1 Corinthians 6:11 it is important not to see "baptism" where the text does not have it. Titus 3:5 makes no mention of water in any translation I am aware of -- see it quoted below.CarpentersApprentice said:
1 Corinthians 6:11 refers to what Titus 3:5 Acts 10:34-48+11:4-17+15:8-9 refer to.
In the latter, we have descriptions of an occurrence where a Jewish-Christian apostle converts a group of Gentiles for the first time. This is after Peter’s first sermon to Jews in Acts 2, and this event was of such significance that it is gone over three times in the Book of Acts. The lead-up to this account includes an explanation in Acts 11:14 where Cornelius was told that Peter would “bring you a message though which you and all your household will be saved” (TNIV). In this account Acts 10:43b-4 says “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word” (ASV). This was before the converts said anything, and before Peter “commanded them to be baptized” (ESV) in Acts 10:48. The passage says that to “believeth on him” brings “remission of sins.”
This event was gone over three times in Scripture. When Peter recalled the occasion at Acts 15:8-9, he said “And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV). Titus 3:5 refers to the same when it says "according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and |renovación = renovation| of the Holy Spirit" (ASV|NVI and translated|ASV).
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BobRyan said:
GE:
You found some big words somewhere and wanted everyone to know, Mr Bean!
Then you act plain dishonest without shame, using just a part of what I said. It's defamation nothing short. But it just shows to what anhorient lengths people who call themselves Christians will go in defence of their arrogance.
Darron Steele
New Member
Part 3
For Ephesians 5:25-7, it is important not to see `baptism’ where the translated Bible text says “water.” The passage was within a discussion of relations between husband and wife. The verses here refer to an ancient custom of pre-nuptial ceremonial baths to prepare for marriage -- Life Application Bible, page 2140.
For Galatians 3:27, it is traditionally “For as many of you as have been baptized into(eis) Christ have put on Christ” (KJV). Contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10, some believe this means completed baptism puts one into Christ so s/he can be saved. Paul did not intend this as he alluded to a cultural rite. Greek eis “into” can be translated “in,” "em" = "in" (DA ERA/ERC), adapting the KJV as: “For as many of you as have been baptized in(eis) Christ have put on Christ.” Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is identification of the believer with Him and His authority; this is similar to 1 Corinthians 10:2 where the Israelites of the Exodus were described as “batizados emeis Moisés” (DA ERC) = “baptized in Moses,” and thereafter they recognized the Judaic Law delivered by Moses to be their authority about God. In Galatians 3:24 the Judaic Law is called “our tutor to Christ” (NASBmg), and then in 3:25 Paul writes “But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (NASB). Galatians 3:26b “ye are all |children| of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus” (ASV|ICB|ASV). In Roman society, a youth who became an adult put aside childhood clothes for new clothing to signify move into adulthood, and a person’s clothing was also considered representative of the person’s self. This passage is a case where knowledge of ancient culture norms facilitates understanding the meaning of `put on.’
Galatians 3:24-7 teaches that we are to be saved by biblical faith, and by identifying oneself with Christ via baptism in His name, one abandons the tutor = the Mosaic Law, “puts on Christ” signifying spiritual maturity – and very importantly is to be `wearing’ the attributes that Jesus Christ valued.
For Ephesians 5:25-7 and Galatians 3:4-7, you would need to be willing to accept the New Testament churches' world.CarpentersApprentice said:
For Ephesians 5:25-7, it is important not to see `baptism’ where the translated Bible text says “water.” The passage was within a discussion of relations between husband and wife. The verses here refer to an ancient custom of pre-nuptial ceremonial baths to prepare for marriage -- Life Application Bible, page 2140.
For Galatians 3:27, it is traditionally “For as many of you as have been baptized into(eis) Christ have put on Christ” (KJV). Contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10, some believe this means completed baptism puts one into Christ so s/he can be saved. Paul did not intend this as he alluded to a cultural rite. Greek eis “into” can be translated “in,” "em" = "in" (DA ERA/ERC), adapting the KJV as: “For as many of you as have been baptized in(eis) Christ have put on Christ.” Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is identification of the believer with Him and His authority; this is similar to 1 Corinthians 10:2 where the Israelites of the Exodus were described as “batizados emeis Moisés” (DA ERC) = “baptized in Moses,” and thereafter they recognized the Judaic Law delivered by Moses to be their authority about God. In Galatians 3:24 the Judaic Law is called “our tutor to Christ” (NASBmg), and then in 3:25 Paul writes “But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (NASB). Galatians 3:26b “ye are all |children| of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus” (ASV|ICB|ASV). In Roman society, a youth who became an adult put aside childhood clothes for new clothing to signify move into adulthood, and a person’s clothing was also considered representative of the person’s self. This passage is a case where knowledge of ancient culture norms facilitates understanding the meaning of `put on.’
Galatians 3:24-7 teaches that we are to be saved by biblical faith, and by identifying oneself with Christ via baptism in His name, one abandons the tutor = the Mosaic Law, “puts on Christ” signifying spiritual maturity – and very importantly is to be `wearing’ the attributes that Jesus Christ valued.
Grace and Peace,
Ultimately we have to conceed that historically there has been a conflating of John the Baptist's Baptism of Repentence and our Saviour's Baptism of the Spirit and Fire.
Let's make this clear on the outset of any discussion of Baptismal Regeneration. Baptists just restore the original distinction between these two Baptisms. :thumbs:
Peace.
Ultimately we have to conceed that historically there has been a conflating of John the Baptist's Baptism of Repentence and our Saviour's Baptism of the Spirit and Fire.
Let's make this clear on the outset of any discussion of Baptismal Regeneration. Baptists just restore the original distinction between these two Baptisms. :thumbs:
Peace.
Eliyahu:
"Credo-Baptism by Immersion ( Believers Baptism after the confession of Faith by Immersion) : CORRECT."
GE:
If you were an Apostle, yes.
"Credo-Baptism by Immersion ( Believers Baptism after the confession of Faith by Immersion) : CORRECT."
GE:
If you were an Apostle, yes.
Darron Steele
New Member
Part 4
Romans 6:2-11 involves picture representations of how Christians are to relate to sin: Romans 6:2b “We are those who have died to sin” (TNIV). This is obviously a picture because reality is that Christians still face the sin problem per 1 John 1:8-10.
Then there is Romans 6:3-5 which demonstrates how by baptism a Christian showed identification with Christ's death and resurrection.
Romans 6:6 has figurative “our old self was crucified” (TNIV) in likeness to Christ’s death. As the congregation was still alive when this epistle was read, they were not literally crucified. What is before Romans 6:3-5 is figurative, and after Romans 6:3-5 is figurative; I posit that Romans 6:3-5 is figurative.
Now, why would Paul use figurative language? Roman 6:11 closes off the point begun at Romans 6:2; 6:11 has “Likewise| consider yourselves dead to sin” (KJV|ESV). Romans 6:3-5 is a supporting `sub-passage' to the larger point of the passage it is part of -- that we should view ourselves as dead to sinful living.
Romans 6:2-11 -- this was modified after being quoted.CarpentersApprentice said:
Romans 6:2-11 involves picture representations of how Christians are to relate to sin: Romans 6:2b “We are those who have died to sin” (TNIV). This is obviously a picture because reality is that Christians still face the sin problem per 1 John 1:8-10.
Then there is Romans 6:3-5 which demonstrates how by baptism a Christian showed identification with Christ's death and resurrection.
Romans 6:6 has figurative “our old self was crucified” (TNIV) in likeness to Christ’s death. As the congregation was still alive when this epistle was read, they were not literally crucified. What is before Romans 6:3-5 is figurative, and after Romans 6:3-5 is figurative; I posit that Romans 6:3-5 is figurative.
Now, why would Paul use figurative language? Roman 6:11 closes off the point begun at Romans 6:2; 6:11 has “Likewise| consider yourselves dead to sin” (KJV|ESV). Romans 6:3-5 is a supporting `sub-passage' to the larger point of the passage it is part of -- that we should view ourselves as dead to sinful living.
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"One Lord, one faith, one baptism" is Christian; two baptisms, is not. That. to me, is enough. Let Christ have it His own way, Himself only worshipped; the faith of Him only and alone; and the Baptism over which and through which, He is Lord, Author and Finisher, Himself!
I do not know of any Church that does not make water-baptism a condition of membership, or that would tolerate membership that protest to the status quo -- he'll be out the window with everyone's whishes of damnation faster than a flash.
Darron Steele said:
GE:
YES!
"... by baptism a Christian showed identification with Christ's death and resurrection."
Actually the passage is in the Passive, co-crucified and co-raised in, or by the real Subject through, naturally, the working of the Holy Spirit; not by the person's self-doing of identification. I think you'll catch my drift.
Darron Steele
New Member
Part 5
Ancient Judaism commonly assumed baptisms to accompany any conversion experience.* Baptism was considered to be marking the making of a new person by `washing away’ earlier life.** The Talmud at Yebamoth 47 a-b says only after this “immediate” ceremony was one “deemed” a Jew even though Scripture indicates “circumcision” (ASV) made one a Jew, as in Acts 10:45 and Galatians.
*In Stamps, Adams, The Full Life Study Bible New Testament, page 249.
**So That’s Why! Bible, page 1287.
***Slotki, The Soncino Talmud: Yebamoth;reference in Sandmel, Judaism and Christian Beginnings, page 233.
In ancient conversions to Judaism, circumcision made one a Jew -- but it was not until the immediate conversion baptism afterward that one was considered a Jew.
Colossians 2:12 refers to "faith in the |poder = power| of God” (NBV|DA ERA and translated |NBV ), and we trust God’s power to save us through Christ = “circumcision without hands.” Baptism is not administered without hands, and per Romans 6:5 baptism is a picture of identifying with Christ in His burial and resurrection. Romans 6:5 reports baptized Christians as baptized in the “semelhanca” (DA ERA) = “similarity” to Christ’s burial and resurrection. I have already shown how this verse supports the larger point of Romans 6:2-11.
Colossians 2:11-12 gives us a parallel to ancient Judaism. In ancient Judaism, baptism completed conversion, promptly following-up circumcision that made one into a Jew; in Christianity, baptism follows-up faith that makes one a Christian, as pictured in Colossians 2:11-2.
Colossians 2:11-2CarpentersApprentice said:
Ancient Judaism commonly assumed baptisms to accompany any conversion experience.* Baptism was considered to be marking the making of a new person by `washing away’ earlier life.** The Talmud at Yebamoth 47 a-b says only after this “immediate” ceremony was one “deemed” a Jew even though Scripture indicates “circumcision” (ASV) made one a Jew, as in Acts 10:45 and Galatians.
*In Stamps, Adams, The Full Life Study Bible New Testament, page 249.
**So That’s Why! Bible, page 1287.
***Slotki, The Soncino Talmud: Yebamoth;reference in Sandmel, Judaism and Christian Beginnings, page 233.
In ancient conversions to Judaism, circumcision made one a Jew -- but it was not until the immediate conversion baptism afterward that one was considered a Jew.
Colossians 2:12 refers to "faith in the |poder = power| of God” (NBV|DA ERA and translated |NBV ), and we trust God’s power to save us through Christ = “circumcision without hands.” Baptism is not administered without hands, and per Romans 6:5 baptism is a picture of identifying with Christ in His burial and resurrection. Romans 6:5 reports baptized Christians as baptized in the “semelhanca” (DA ERA) = “similarity” to Christ’s burial and resurrection. I have already shown how this verse supports the larger point of Romans 6:2-11.
Colossians 2:11-12 gives us a parallel to ancient Judaism. In ancient Judaism, baptism completed conversion, promptly following-up circumcision that made one into a Jew; in Christianity, baptism follows-up faith that makes one a Christian, as pictured in Colossians 2:11-2.
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