Baptismal regeneration....

[Oasis]

CA

If you do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation what do you do with these verses:

Acts 2:38 and 22:16
Rom. 6:1-4
1Cor 6:11 and 12:13
Gal 3:27
Eph 5:25-27
Col 2:11-12
1Ptr 3:18-22

And keep reading in Titus 3:5, "he saved us... through the water of rebirth..."

CA

Hi CA,

In Acts 2:38 Aside from some proselytes, Peter was speaking to the nation of Israel. Not only had Paul not yet been designated as the first Apostle to the Gentiles, Gentiles were never under the law.

In Acts 22:16 Paul is repeating the thought of his experience on the Damascus road when he says,
"Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." In this verse the phrase "wash your sins away" is connected to "calling on his name." If connected with "be baptized," the Greek participle "epikalesamenos(calling) would have no antecedent. Paul's sins were washed away by calling on His name.

I'll have to answer the rest when I have more time.

Have a great evening:godisgood:

 

[Eliyahu]

Acts 2:38

This is the verse which is mostly abused by the people who claim the Baptismal Regeneration.

Πετρος, δε εφη προς αυτους, «Μετανοησατε και βαπτισθητω εκαστος υμων τω ονοματι Ιησου Χριστου εις αφησιν αμαρτιων, και ληψεσθε την δωρεαν του Αγιου Πνευματος»

But Peter said to them, let everyone of you repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit..

Or

But Peter said to them, for the remission of sins, let everyone of you repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit..

It is not specifying the order of the events.

What about this:

Mark 16:16


He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What if one believeth in Jesus but had no chance of Baptism as the Robber at the Cross?

Was the Robber at the Cross not saved?

Do you read this? “he that believeth not shall be damned.” Why does it omit the Baptism?

What about this?


Acts 10:
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

1) Question : Did Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism or after Baptism?
2) Whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins or Whosoever be baptized shall received the remission of sins?
3) Did the Holy Spirit fall on them who were baptized or who heard the Word?
4) Did Peter baptize the Cornelius family first and then they received the Holy Spirit?


Acts 22:16
Be baptized and wash away thy sins, - This doesn’t mean that Paul’s sins were not forgiven yet. Paul believed in Jesus and that’s why he called Jesus Lord ( Acts 9:5-6), then he was ready to accept the commandments from the Lord, and therefore he asked “ what wilt thou have me to do?”

Anania called Paul “ Brother Saul”(22:13) and Jesus told Anania that Paul was praying, and saw the vision that that a man put his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. ( 9:11-12)

Romans 6:1-4
It doesn’t say that one can be born again by the Baptism.

It explains how the Baptism symbolizes the death and the resurrection of the person who believes in Jesus Christ already.

1 Corinthians 6:11

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
( Not by water baptism!)

Wash here
απελοθσασθε ( not Βαπτιζω)

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

( Not by water, but by ONE SPIRIT)


Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

True Believers are baptized into Christ, not into Water!


Ephesians 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of waterby the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

This tells us the connection between Water and Word.
Word of God is often symbolized by Water as we read John 3:5

Washing of Water ( λουτρω του υδατος)

Colossians 2:11-12

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

11 talks about the Circumcision and has nothing to do with the water baptism but this shows us that Paul is talking about the spiritual circumcision that we had in Jesus Christ.


12 likewise, as the verse 11, Paul talks about the spiritual Baptism, because it is easy for him to explain the death and resurrection by the Baptism as he explained in Romans 6.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;

Not by the works of Water Baptism but by the HOLY SPIRIT, we were regenerated!

Washing of regeneration:

δια λουτρου παλιγγενεσιας

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


Peter contrasts “Putting away” with the “good conscience toward God”
Putting away of the filth of the flesh is done by washing or bathing in the water.

Peter emphasizes here that the real meaning of the Baptism is not the washing but the Spiritual Sanctification toward God.


Also, Peter pointed out Noah’s family were saved In The Ark, which was the symbol of Body of Christ, the Church of today.


Peter knew very well that Noah was a JUST and perfect man before the Flood, ( Genesis 6:9) Noah walked with God, before the Flood. Flood was a shadow of the Baptism, but Noah was righteous before the Flood.


Could you Walk with God before Being Born Again?


Could you be perfect and righteous before you were born again?
God instructed Noah in detail about how to make the Ark, and Noah followed His instruction exactly. Could any unsaved man follow the God’s instruction exactly like that?

Noah’s family believed in God already and were saved already.
Genesis 7:1 God said to Noah, “ For thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation”

Was Abraham righteous after the circumcision? Read Romans 4.

So, Peter is not telling that the Water Baptism can save us, but by the resurrection of Jesus he meant the Spiritual Baptism.

Should we change the Bible as follows?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

Should we change to “ Whosoever be baptized in the name of Jesus should not perish?


Acts 16:31
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Do you want to change this to “ Be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou .. “ ?


But Jesus says this:
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

Finally, I have often noticed that the people who do not have the experience of Spiritual Being Born Again or the people who think the Decision making to believe in Jesus as the coming of the Holy Spirit into their heart. I.e Being Born Again, claims the baptismal regeneration.


To such people, if they are deprived of even the Baptism, they have nothing to rely on, and therefore Baptism is very important to them as like a salvation.


But the True believers who have the Spiritual Baptism by receiving the Holy Spirit consider the Baptism as the outward declaration of what they believed already before, and as the reconfirmation of what happened to them at the time of Spiritual Baptism.


The people who have never had the Spiritual Baptism cannot understand even this explanation because they are spiritually blinded as the Jews were who didn’t believe in Jesus, which is very sad.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CarpentersApprentice:

"And keep reading in Titus 3:5, "he saved us... through the water of rebirth...""

GE:

I don't know where you got this from, but it is the worst of perversion of the text possible.

KJV: "... NOT by the works WE, have done, but, according to HIS MERCY, He saved us - by the washing OF REGENERATION and OF RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST" -- which altogether makes of the "washing"-'dia loutrou', a SPIRITUAL 'washing'. I don't see 'hudatos-water' anywhere!

This is another example of how the translators of our age, dance to the drum of Roman Catholicism. They are NOT trustworthy stewards.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"But Peter said to them, for the remission of sins, let everyone of you repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit..

It is not specifying the order of the events."

GE:

Though we agree in some respect, we also differ as much, for here, "the order of events" are in fact FULLY 'specified'. It would make no sense Peter answered them with vagueries; he told them exactly how any one shall be saved or not at all. And that means that one should be, quote: "...repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and ... receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit".
Now this once more is ALTOGETHER a spiritual matter and ALTOGETHER, the work of God. "Repent in the Name of Jesus Christ"; "be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ"; "receive the Holy Spirit in the Name of Jesus Christ". "EVERYTHING you ask of the Father IN MY NAME, He shall give you." He won't give anything not Jesus' Name.
To baptise with water is the work of man, never asked of him by God, and therefore to Him not only useless pomp, but rejected willfulness.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just like the mass and Sunday-veneration.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Finally, I have often noticed that the people who do not have the experience of Spiritual Being Born Again or the people who think the Decision making to believe in Jesus as the coming of the Holy Spirit into their heart. I.e Being Born Again, claims the baptismal regeneration.


To such people, if they are deprived of even the Baptism, they have nothing to rely on, and therefore Baptism is very important to them as like a salvation.


But the True believers who have the Spiritual Baptism by receiving the Holy Spirit consider the Baptism as the outward declaration of what they believed already before, and as the reconfirmation of what happened to them at the time of Spiritual Baptism.


The people who have never had the Spiritual Baptism cannot understand even this explanation because they are spiritually blinded as the Jews were who didn’t believe in Jesus, which is very sad."

GE:

Yea and amen! A great comfort is it to find someone with the same conviction!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Except, that But the True believers who have the Spiritual Baptism by receiving the Holy Spirit consider the Baptism as the INWARD declaration of what they believed already before, and as the reconfirmation of what happened to them at the time of Spiritual Baptism.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And this goes on for as long as they might live.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Putting away of the filth of the flesh is done by washing or bathing in the water. "

GE:

Water-baptism in Christianity differs not from heathen water-baptism -- like the hindi do in the Ganges. I am ashamed to admit.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Putting away of the filth of the flesh is done by washing or bathing in the water. "

GE:

Water-baptism in Christianity differs not from heathen water-baptism -- like the hindi do in the Ganges. I am ashamed to admit.

This may apply to the Sprinkling Baptism mostly, but to the Immersion Baptism as well.

Baptism without faith means nothing.

However, we must remember that Baptism and Lord supper are so important which reminds us of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Second coming of Jesus.

I don't ignore the Importance of Baptism. It is very, very important, but is not the pre-requisite for Salvation, but the fundamental basis for the faithful obedience to God after Salvation.

1 Peter 3:18-22 are often misused and abused, but Noah's family were saved much earlier than the Flood, and therefore Peter was not talking about the Baptismal Regeneration there.

 

[hillclimber1]

Chemnitz:

"... God works through Baptism, so contrary to Gerhard ..."

GE:

God is it, who works through baptism --- of the Holy Spirit (you have said it). And that is not contrary to Gerhard; that's exactly what I say! Baptism - the baptism of Jesus Christ - is not a human work - not in any way! As soon as it becomes a human work in any way, it has become a perverted way. Now baptism with or in water makes of it a human work, a fully fledged "frivolity" as Calvin said of Romish ceremonies.

Very good, I agree with this. Human baptisms lead to all kinds of faulty assumptions and conclusions. And I might add, no good comes of it.

 

[BobRyan]

This may apply to the Sprinkling Baptism mostly, but to the Immersion Baptism as well.

Baptism without faith means nothing.

However, we must remember that Baptism and Lord supper are so important which reminds us of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Second coming of Jesus.

The Lord's Supper 1 Cor 11 "You do show the Lord's Death until He comes".

So yes - I guess you get both events covered by that symbol.

Buried and raised with Christ - Romans 6 -- in Baptism.

Again - both events --

Good pionts!

I don't ignore the Importance of Baptism. It is very, very important, but is not the pre-requisite for Salvation, but the fundamental basis for the faithful obedience to God after Salvation.

1 Peter 3:18-22 are often misused and abused, but Noah's family were saved much earlier than the Flood, and therefore Peter was not talking about the Baptismal Regeneration there.

1 Peter 3 says "According to that Baptism now SAVES you - NOT THE magic sacramental touch of water on the flesh - BUT AN APPEAL to GOD for a clean conscience" --

You have to wonder how the infant is "appealing to God for a clean conscience" and getting saved in a "Baptismal regeneraion" model.

You have to wonder how ANYTHING the infant did could be thought of by the believer as REPLACING their OWN obligation to follow their Lord in Baptism and thus experience the Romans 6 event in the Christian life!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eliyahu:



he told them exactly how any one shall be saved or not at all. And that means that one should be, quote: "...repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and ... receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit".
Now this once more is ALTOGETHER a spiritual matter and ALTOGETHER, the work of God. "Repent in the Name of Jesus Christ"; "be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ"; "receive the Holy Spirit in the Name of Jesus Christ".

GE seems to make sense for a minute. (And I have noticed that he CAN do that on occassion).

THEN he goes back to being GE

To baptise with water is the work of man, never asked of him by God, and therefore to Him not only useless pomp, but rejected willfulness.

Ignoring the fact that NT Apostles, the Disciples and John the baptizer all baptized with water - GE leaps off that cliff right back out into thin air!

What is up with that?

In Christ,

Bob



[/quote]

 

[Eliyahu]

I didn't know that there are so much diversities in understanding the importance of Baptism like this.

Is here any Quaker? I think they ignore any sacraments or any formalities, but focus on the spiritual Baptism ( Being Born Again) and all spiritual interpretation.

However, Baptism itself teaches us and reminds us of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Lord Supper reminds us His broken Body, Blood shed at the Cross, His second coming, making us prepared Holy for the next Lord Supper all the time, preventing us from sinning, sharing the same Bread and Wine among the believers which confirms the One Body for the believers.

However, they are not the pre-requisites for the Salvation, but the results after Salvation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This may apply to the Sprinkling Baptism mostly, but to the Immersion Baptism as well.

Baptism without faith means nothing.

However, we must remember that Baptism and Lord supper are so important which reminds us of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Second coming of Jesus.

I don't ignore the Importance of Baptism. It is very, very important, but is not the pre-requisite for Salvation, but the fundamental basis for the faithful obedience to God after Salvation.

1 Peter 3:18-22 are often misused and abused, but Noah's family were saved much earlier than the Flood, and therefore Peter was not talking about the Baptismal Regeneration there.

GE:

"Baptism without faith means nothing." --- the hindialso baptise themselves in faith --- which is of no worth.

"we must remember that Baptism and Lord supper are so important which reminds us of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Second coming of Jesus."

We shall live by every word of God --- reminding us of but one thing, Jesus Christ. Baptism as a reminder is but very minor once in a lifetime, and mostly at an age one doesn't remember a thing. What's so important about baptism then? If not to the very redemption of one's soul, baptism is obsolete, unnecessary and obtrusive. Therefore the true baptism of Christ is the spiritual rebirth of the soul through the operation of the Holy Spirit, and indispensible and obligatory even while in toto the work of God himself in us. Water-baptism is not Christian, anymore today. It used to be a sign of Apostolic authority, but since the establishment of the Christian Faith in the world, can only be abused to fasten upon the false church its power and domination.

"baptism is ... the fundamental basis for the faithful obedience to God after Salvation."

No, baptism cannot usurp the Holy Spirit's prerogative. If it does, baptism is anti-christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Baptism itself teaches us and reminds us of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Where do you read that in the Bible? That is what the Scriptures do, and the Holy Spirit -- who actually make us partake in the death and resurrection of Jesus by faith. It's not baptism -- not water-baptism!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

[/size]

GE seems to make sense for a minute. (And I have noticed that he CAN do that on occassion).

THEN he goes back to being GE


Ignoring the fact that NT Apostles, the Disciples and John the baptizer all baptized with water - GE leaps off that cliff right back out into thin air!

What is up with that?

In Christ,

Bob

[/quote]

GE:

While BR tries to climb back that cliff whereupon Christ placed these mentioned : Apostles! while you and I are just disciples. Or are you a Roman Catholic that believes is Apostolic succession? They retain water-baptism for no reason but to retain apostolic authority.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The 'NT Apostles, the Disciples and John the baptizer all', did not baptize with water, anyway recorded in the pages of the NT. There are but few - 2 or 3 instances? - found in which water played a part in baptism : while they each time were performed by either an Apostle or one directly appointed by an Apostle. After the Apostolic age, water-baptism ceased althogether except in heretical movements. Today these are regarded the true guardians of the faith --- my foot!

 

[Eliyahu]

GE:



No, baptism cannot usurp the Holy Spirit's prerogative. If it does, baptism is anti-christ.

You better teach God and Jesus Christ!