Baptist based, Torah Observant?

[Peter101]

One woman who often posts on the Baptist board attends a synagogue and yet apparently thinks of herself as a Baptist. In her exact words, she describes herself as "..a member of a Baptist-based Torah-observant Synagogue".

It seems to me that the differences in doctrine between Baptists and Jews are so vast that one cannot be both at the same time. For instance, the divinity of Christ would almost certainly not be accepted by any members of the Jewish religion, at least of the mainstream. Any comments?

 

[Ben W]

Often Torah observant Christians are reffered to as "Messianic Jews".

Many Jews who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour keep on with different feasts and not eating unclean meats. We have the choice on this, Paul states that the Gentiles do not have to observe this stuff, yet we cant judge those that do either and we should not be judged in reverse either.

the Seventh Day Baptist Church is not what would be termed Torah Observant, yet a number of Jewish Believers belong to it being comfortable with its Sabbath keeping effort.

here is the website for more information

http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/

 

[Tim]

Peter,

I would agree with your assesment that Judaism and Baptist, yea Christian doctrine are not compatible.

But I think Messianic Jewish beliefs are a sincere yet misguided effort to live in obedience to the Scriptures.

BenW and Abiyah and I have gone around and around on this from time to time, right Ben?

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim

 

[Ben W]

We certainley have given this one some debate

Yet I dont think that Misguided is the best term. People are free to keep feasts, Sabbaths and new moon festivals if they wish too, Paul says not to judge each other by which of these we keep. Gentiles were told openly that they needed to refrain from sexual immorality and from blood in respect to jewish law, yet obviously the Jews who had accepted Christ were still going on with aspects of judaism like Circumsision. Which they have dispensation to do.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I enjoy worshiping with messianic believers. Big group in the Minneapolis area is pastored by graduates of Central Baptist Theological Seminary, premier ifb school in the midwest.

So it is "baptist" and "messianic". Different styles of worship, different music, different emphasis on days of worship, celebration etc. But still Baptist.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Concept of the NT is to BREAK DOWN the differences between Jew/Gentile and make them all ONE.

 

[gb93433]

Sometime visit a messinaic congregation. You might be shocked as I was. The next day I went to my own church and it seemed so watered down by comparison.

 

[Peter101]

>>>>Sometime visit a messinaic congregation<<<<

I am not sure I understand what that is. Would it be a jewish synagogue or not?

 

[Tim]

Quote from Dr. Bob,"Concept of the NT is to BREAK DOWN the differences between Jew/Gentile and make them all ONE."

I agree, but not to make us all Jewish--keeping Jewish feasts, keeping Jewish sabbaths, etc.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Squire Robertsson]

If the congregation in question does not fall into the trap of the Judaizers in Galatians, I view the situation the same way I view the services of my Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist brethren. In other words, I look at their practices as being ethnicly based. Let's not forget "Jewish" denotes an ethnic group/nationality as well as a religion. Would you look askance at a group of Hispanic Baptists in New Fishkill, Iowa holding services in Spanish and practicing some of the traditions from their homelands? I think not.

 

[Tim]

I don't have any problem with maintaining Jewish ethnicity. But holding onto Old Testament commands and practices given to Israel under the Old Covenant seems to undermine the sufficiency and finality of the New Covenant--a covenant also initially given to the Jews (though not exclusively for long).

It seems like some think that the old wine was better. But it really doesn't keep well in new wineskins.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Ahhh, but the rub is that Jewish ethnicity is intertwined with the Torah. It takes a decerning eye to see where the line is between Jewish ethnic identity and Judaizing.

 

[Tim]

Yes, sometimes it's a fine line, but with all the N.T. warnings against Judaizing--it's a scripturally important line. Maintaining ethnicity is nice, but not at the expense of doctrinal confusion.

Tim

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Tim:
But I think Messianic Jewish beliefs are a sincere yet misguided effort to live in obedience to the Scriptures.

Greetings Tim:

I would very much disagree with you on this point. We have a FANTASTIC synagogue here in Richmond, and I cannot tell you how much I really enjoyed visiting this Congregation. They believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, and faith in Yeshua is the key to salvation. They simply follow the Law to show their devotion to God.

My question to those who identify themselves as Torah-observant would relate to just how "observant" they really are. One simply cannot pick and choose the laws they observe: they have to follow the whole of the Law.

 

[Tim]

Quote from B in R: "My question to those who identify themselves as Torah-observant would relate to just how "observant" they really are. One simply cannot pick and choose the laws they observe: they have to follow the whole of the Law."

B in R,

You just summed up my objection to Messianic Jewish beliefs--it's focus ends up being O.T. Law-keeping (not a New Covenant concept).

In Christ and thus no longer a debtor to the Law,

Tim

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Tim:
>>You just summed up my objection to Messianic
>>Jewish beliefs--it's focus ends up being O.T.
>>Law-keeping (not a New Covenant concept).

Hey Tim:

Sorry I didn't see your post last night. I would have responded sooner.

I understand your objection, and would point out to the "Torah Observant" that, although their motive is respectable, one should not get consumed with following the First Covenant. Additionally, they should bear in mind that they must accept ALL of the Law, not merely part of it. That would include not wearing cotton/polyester blends, for example.

In the one particular case of the synagogue here, they focus on the "Second Covenant" although they strive to live according to the Law. On their website, they state that they are not "dogmatic" about it.

>>In Christ and thus no longer a debtor to the Law,

Amen, Tim. I'm with you on this one.

 

[yod]

I am a gentile who considers himself "messianic"

I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about that. In fact, I urge you to ask the hardest questions you can think of.

how can someone be a "torah observant" baptist?

Easy! This is not necessarily the same as a completely Torah "Obedient" Baptist.

Most of the rabbis I know who lead messianic congregations were ordained as Baptists...but there are not the same denominational boundaries within messianic congregations that exist in the church. For instance, in almost any messianic congregation you will find a WIDE diversity of denominations represented.

There will be those from Catholic, Baptist, AOG, Jewish (ORthodox, Reform, and Conservative), Pentecostals, Methodists, etc....

You will find wide varying opinions on the gifts of the spirit, rapture timing, and other controversial topics which divide the body of Christ at large. We are not going to let that stuff divide us...We are one in the Spirit and love for Yeshua is what holds us together.

There are some verrrry bad messianic congregations just as there are some very bad Baptist churches....but for the most part we are as orthodox and fundamental as any church except for the fact that we express our faith in a hebraic perspective. There is much celebration and joy in our praise...and much reverence in our worship.

I won't judge you for keeping all the pagan holidays if you won't judge me for keeping the Biblical ones, ok?

Now...did that last statement hurt just a little? This is how I see it when someone accuses us of being legalists because we seek to find value in the whole Bible.

I had a Bacon cheeseburger yesterday. It is an unclean meat in the "Torah" (which is literally translated as "instruction" rather than "law")

As Paul says, "All things are permissable but not all things edify"

This means I can eat paint if I want to but why would I do that if it harms me? This is the same way we interpret eating unclean meats....or other passages in the Torah.

No one was ever saved by the Law....we realize this fact as well any of you do.

But that is not the same thing as saying that there is no value whatsoever in knowing what the Torah says about any given subject and seeking to understand "why" a commandment is given.

The Torah is still righteous and good and useful for instruction. The penalty for transgressions has been paid and I am free from sin...but what we reap we shall sow.

In my opinion, the larger Body of Christ could use a good understanding of the Sabbath. It all about making time for fellowship with the saints

I move in the church and messianic congregations equally...I know how busy it gets. What you would call a "pot luck dinner" we call an Oneg and every congregation I know does that at least once a month. Some do it every Shabbat.

We have seasonal celebrations [which can be found in the Bible] that remind us constantly of the basics of our faith. This also gives us many opportunities to teach our children what they forgot from last year

And it gives us specific times to enjoy each other without a "program". It's about loving our neighbor. That's hard to do if you only see the back of their head for an hour on Sunday.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

That was an absolutely EXCELLENT post, yod.
Thank you for joining the discussion.

Does your Congregation interact with other churches? I wanted very much to attend the local messianic congregation, but was afraid that I would be encroaching. They quickly replied that I was more than welcome to worship with them, although I am not a member.

You know: if I wasn't such a dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist, I would join that synagogue.....

 

[yod]

Does your Congregation interact with other churches? I wanted very much to attend the local messianic congregation, but was afraid that I would be encroaching. They quickly replied that I was more than welcome to worship with them, although I am not a member.

I was hoping for a harder question than that one....but YES is the answer.

I will usually do about 20 Passover demostrations in the month of April and I've been in every denomination you can imagine. A high percentage are Baptist churches and even once in a Catholic church!

We consider all saints to be "mishpocha" (family) which is greater than "membership"

If you ever go to a messianic congregation that isn't instantly warm, sincere, and friendly then you are in one of the verrrry bad ones.

Run away!

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by yod:
I was hoping for a harder question than that one....but YES is the answer.

Hmm: not really sure exactly what you intended to convey with this, but okay - sorry to let you down.

The purpose of my question was to take this in a related direction. I listened to a sermon at the synagogue, and the topic was one of acceptance. The Rabbi (raised in an orthadox home) was discussing the reaction he received from his parents when he told them that he believed Yeshua to be the Messiah. I cannot imagine the pain of complete rejection by one's parents.
I have heard it said (and have read) that the Traditional Jewish congregations do not accept Hebrew Christians, and seemingly some Christian congregations don't accept them either. I was curious as to whether your Congregation was experiencing this as well.

 

[Peter101]

Well, it all seems very strange to me, when Baptist doctrine can become mixed up with Judaism.