Baptist (Catholic) Missionaries

Do you think that those whom Paul did not preach the gospel to in Asia received salvation? Do all the unreached people groups of the world receive salvation? Did anyone besides Abram, called out of Ur and chosen by God, receive salvation? Did God save anyone in the flood besides Noah and his family?

Either one is a universalist, or one believes in the biblical doctrine of uncoditional election.

John 17:8-12 (ESV)
For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. [9] I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. [11] And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

Oh, I misread your post. I thought you were arguing the Arminian side!

The clause "preached by man" is the qualifier. Must all the elect hear the gospel "preached by man"? No. But they must "hear" the gospel. It must be preached by the Holy Spirit. The only gospel I heard myself was a billboard with Luke 2:11 on it: For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

I read that, and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the truth of my sin, and need for the Savior.

The gospel must be heard, read or relayed in some manner. It is through the gospel, in some manner, that God saves the elect. All the elect will hear, and will believe.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

What more of an answer do you want? You want me to agree with you before you consider it an answer??? I did answer the question. You just didn't like it.

This appears irrelevant. The point was that Paul went because the gospel needed to be preached so that the elect could obtain salvation and with it eterna life. If you are right in your doctrine, then there was no need for Paul to go. Consider the trip to Macedonia. The Spirit came to Paul in a vision and Luke says, When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them (Acts 16:10). While they were there preached, a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul (Acts 16:16) and she was baptized (Acts 16:17). It is evident that Paul's theology was different than yours is.

I have no problem with being lead by the Holy Spirit. I think he leads differently today than then but that is beside the point.

No it doens't mean they were all going to hell. So far as I know, Paul was not the only preacher of the gospel. In fact, the gospel was travelling by many means. What this means is that Paul was not the one at the time to take the gospel into Asia. It is evident that the gospel did get there because there were elect there.

I am not disputing this and I am getting a little tired of telling you that. Scripture is clear that message of the gospel is necessary for regeneration. I have cited the passages again and again and you refuse to talk about those.

Consider the Jerusallem council: Acts 15:7-8 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Notice the order: Peter preached (by my mouth) the heard the word of the gospel and believed, and God cleansed their hearts by faith.

But you argue that their hearts were cleansed at Calvary at Christ's death and that faith had nothing to do with it. Yet this verse tells you something different.

Consider Rom 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

It is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation and it is given to everyone who believes. It is this for which Paul had a desire to go to Rome and preach.

In 2 Thess 2:14, God called them "through our gospel."

Over and over again, your contention is shown to be inadequate to deal with the Scriptural texts.

I have notice you quote an awful lot of Hulan F. Bass. Why not quote Scripture? That would be more helpful and more meaningful to theological discussion.

 

If anyone will be saved it will be through the Gospel message. To say differantly is not Biblical. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Unconditional election is true but God has commissioned us to preach the Gospel to every man and when we fail to do that we are failing Christ. .

 

The charge there seems to be a charge of eternal consequence and none of the elect will ever face that becuase of justification. I think you are really stretching here to find something without having to deal with teh passages that actually talk about this issue rather than about something else.

 

John Calvin gave a warning to those who neglected evangelism in his commentary on Acts 20:26-27,31

that if anything perish through their negligence, an account may be required at theirat their hands; yea, that unless they show the way of salvation without guile and crooks, the destruction of those who go astray may be imputed unto them.


As Calvinists, a negligence or lack of concern for the lost falls into the Arminian stereotype of us as the "Frozen Chosen". How many of us Calvinists pray as the Calvinist Evangelist George Whitefield prayed, " "O, Lord give me souls, or take my soul!"

[ April 28, 2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Christopher:
The GOSPEL is God's only power to save.( Romans 1:16).It is the word that has the power to do so. (Hebrews 4:12, James 1:21). it is the word that begats one IN Christ.( James 1:18). Men are begotten by the gospel. (I Cor. 4:15). The first Christans were saved by the word.( Acts 2:40,41).
Jesus said in Mark 1:15," The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye and believe the gospel." Jesus is preaching the power of God to save. The Thessaloanians understood that salvation was by the gopsel. (II Thes. 2:14). The gospel calls men to salvation. Who? All men. "Whosoever will."( Rev.22:17). Some men will and some men want, but whosoever will shall be saved.
Frank

 

Numbers 20:10 Hear now, ye rebels must we fetch you water out of this Rock? Are you going to give a drink of water to one who is not thirsting for it? That is not even logical and we know the scriptures are full of the logic of God. Who gives the thirsting soul water to drink... The preacher? Thats not even biblical because the man is dead! What person on here would give water to a corpse? You give water to a living man and the only one that can give that man eternal life... The living water is Jesus Christ a lesson taught by Jesus to the woman of Samaria.

Here we go again with Gospel regeneration in different clothing. We are speaking of the Living Gospel and the only one that can give that is the Holy Spirit. Why is Salvation always one sided? Does every scripture in the bible when it says saved or salvation pertain to eternal salvation? NO! I'm glad for the Primitive Baptist which I am glad to be a member is not chained to this doctrine of bondage. The letter of the law killeth! It will kill every joy in the Lord you can possibly imagine. Call us what you will we are use to it and stand where no others will stand or dare to stand!

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Amazing Grace has always been free and eternal salvation for the elect has no condition to make it so except the shed blood of The Lamb Of God.

You will never here this in a Primitive Baptist Church! Hear now, ye rebels must we fetch you water out of this rock?... Brother Glen

 

Christopher:
Whosoever is a term meaning all. The conditions are anyone who desires to come( Will). This is the same request Jesus made in Mat.11:28-30. Whosoever wants to will and whosoever does not want to will not.
Frank

 

This is a strawman. The PB seems unable or unwilling to differentiate what God can do and what he has chosen to do. He could have prevented man from ever committing original sin, but he didn't. He could have ended all the world after the sin of Eden, but he didn't.

He can do anything, but he has chosen to work the gospel ministry through chosen, fallible vessels, for the praise and glory of His name. Your argument is not with evangelists, but unfortunately with God himself.

 

pinoybaptist said,

I agree with Chris...Strawman argument.

We are commisioned to Evangelize is a fact and to neglect sharing the Gospel with the unconverted is direct rebellion against Christ and His commission.

 

However, the only ones who will desire are those whom God regenerates and gives to the Son (John 3:5-8; 6:39-44).

And "whosoever" does not even appear in the Greek. The better, more literal translations are:

(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(YLT) for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The only ones who desire to know Christ are those reborn from above.

For the proper expostion of John 3:16, see John Owen's Exposition of John 3:16

 

"However, the only ones who will desire are those whom God regenerates and gives to the Son" (John 3:5-8; 6:39-44).

question..where do you see the word regenerate in those passages? or is that just someting you came up with becasue that's what you personally believe?

"And "whosoever" does not even appear in the Greek. The better, more literal translations are":

(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
everyone..still means just that..anyone can believe.

"(YLT) for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

Oh.. may not perish?? so there is a chance then that we could perish even if we believed in Christ. that is interesting. age enduring?? which age?

"The only ones who desire to know Christ are those reborn from above."

this isn't a bit scriptural

"For the proper expostion of John 3:16, see John Owen's Exposition of John 3:16"

So we should go to men to tell us what John 3:16 REALLY means? so the BIBLE just isn't good enough anymore??