Baptist Pastor Understands Sabbath

[BobRyan]

Here is a video I found today.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO8kVXUQ3ZU

I don't know much about this Pastor except what he says in the sermon - apparently he and his congregation have taken a step toward the Seventh-day Baptist POV.

In any case - it made me wonder if he had read the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689

[FONT=&quot]http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19
[/FONT]
and then of course - the Baptist Confession of Faith as C.H. Spurgeon had revised it in the 1800's.


[FONT=&quot]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19[/FONT]


What do you think?

I am guessing that this would have been news to him at one point. (But maybe not now.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a video I found today.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO8kVXUQ3ZU

I don't know much about this Pastor except what he says in the sermon - apparently he and his congregation have taken a step toward the Seventh-day Baptist POV.

In any case - it made me wonder if he had read the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689

[FONT=&quot]http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19
[/FONT]
and then of course - the Baptist Confession of Faith as C.H. Spurgeon had revised it in the 1800's.


[FONT=&quot]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19[/FONT]


What do you think?

I am guessing that this would have been news to him at one point. (But maybe not now.)

in Christ,

Bob

The 1689 confession of faith is produced by the very same Baptists who produced the 1644 confession of faith - neither of which observed Saturday as their Sabbath.


7._____ As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished. ( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )


This is not a revised edition. This is not Spurgeons edition. This one has the original introduction and signers and can be found:

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/1689lbc/english/Chapter22.htm

There is absolutely no truth to your statement above concerning the revision of the 1689 on the Sabbath day observed by these churches. They all observed Sunday as their Sabbath. This can equally be seen in the American edition or the Philadelphia Baptist Confession.

 

[Salty]

Yes, the Sabbath is on Saturday (actually Fri @ Sunset)

Under the new covenant, we are no longer under the Law - but under grace and worship on the First Day of the week

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, the Sabbath is on Saturday (actually Fri @ Sunset)

Under the new covenant, we are no longer under the Law - but under grace and worship on the First Day of the week

Actually the Sabbath preceded the Mosaic covenant (Ex. 16) and was designed by God to incorporate a change of days as both the first and seventh are viewed as Sabbaths. The Mosaic Sabbath and all the ceremonial laws regarding it has been abolished but the Sabbath that preceded Moses is enshrined in the Lord's Day which is based upon the greater work of redemption and anticipates a greater creation that can never be defiled - the eighth and eternal day.

It is established as a day of rejoicing and worship and the 1689 confession of Faith presents it correctly.

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO8kVXUQ3ZU

I don't know much about this Pastor except what he says in the sermon - apparently he and his congregation have taken a step toward the Seventh-day Baptist POV.

In any case - it made me wonder if he had read the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689

[FONT=&quot]http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19
[/FONT]
and then of course - the Baptist Confession of Faith as C.H. Spurgeon had revised it in the 1800's.


[FONT=&quot]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19[/FONT]


What do you think?

I am guessing that this would have been news to him at one point. (But maybe not now.)

The 1689 confession of faith is produced by the very same Baptists who produced the 1644 confession of faith - neither of which observed Saturday as their Sabbath.

All of which claimed that the Sabbath commandment is one of the TEN Commandments and that the TEN Commandments were given to mankind in Eden - and are still binding on the saints today.

ALL of which admitted that the Sabbath commandment as given by God required that we keep Sabbath holy from Friday evening to Saturday evening.

Your "complaint" then is that they also agreed to "Edit" the 4th commandment - and I do not.

Complaint noted.

I have no problem admitting that I differ with them on that one point. I do not think that the Law of God is up for editing via the traditions of man.

But other than that - they are certainly correct in many of their doctrinal statements. Credit where credit is due.




7._____ As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week,


(That would be Saturday - the 7th day)

and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week,

("The Seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God" Exodus 20)


But man made tradition says it abolishes the exact details of the Word of God and then applies the force of that word to its own tradition its own "Change" -
and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished. ( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )


Thus my earlier statements are exactly correct.

They all observed Sunday as their Sabbath. This can equally be seen in the American edition or the Philadelphia Baptist Confession.

You do get some details correct. I have never argued that you get all of them wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, the Sabbath is on Saturday (actually Fri @ Sunset)

Under the new covenant, we are no longer under the Law - but under grace and worship on the First Day of the week

1. Under the new Covenant the LAW of God is "written on the heart" Heb 8 - instead of Abolished.

2. Under the "new Covenant" - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

3. Under the "new covenant" the "Saints are those who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

4. Under the "new covenant" "he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of breaking all" James 2.

5. Under the "new covenant" or faith does not ABOLISH the Law of God rather "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31

5. And the Baptist Confession of Faith is very clear that under the New Covenant the Ten Commandments REMAIN (yes all TEN) as the MORAL law of God binding on the saints.

And that the Genesis 3 act of making the 7th day holy - was a command for the 4th commandment applicable to all mankind - even before the fall.

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

6. In Romans 6 Paul says that we are NOT to "sin" (are not to transgress the Law of God 1John 3:4) under Grace or else we are declaring ourselves to be the servants of sin - and are lost.

Romans 6

[FONT=&quot]10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11Even so consider yourselves to be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]dead to sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but alive to God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12Therefore [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not let [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin reign in your mortal body so that[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot] its lusts, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13and do not go on presenting the members of your [/FONT][FONT=&quot]body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]14For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin shall not be master over you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall we sin because we are not under law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but under grace[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]May it never be![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of the one whom you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17But thanks be to God that though [/FONT][FONT=&quot]you were slaves of sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18and having been freed from sin, you became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of righteousness[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Actually the Sabbath preceded the Mosaic covenant (Ex. 16) and was designed by God to incorporate a change of days .

Fact: There is no mention at all of the first day of the week being Sabbath in the 4th commandment -- see Exodus 20:8-11.

Fact: there is no mention at all in the 4th commandment of leaving it up to the traditions of man to "Change the days" -- read Exodus 20:8-11.

Fact: there is no case in all of scripture where a weekly cycle week-day-1 Sabbath is kept holy or as a Sunday-after-Sunday day of worship in response to the 4th commandment. No not even in the NT''

Fact: There is no case in all of scripture were observance of week-day 1 is said to be in honor or obedience to the 4th commandment.

I think we all know that much.

Thus when you combine the indisputable facts above - with the statements from the Baptist Confession of Faith telling us that ALL ten commandments are the "moral law of God" unchanging and applicable to the saints even to this day - the conclusion in favor of the Seventh-day Baptist POV is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCassidy]

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

If we are in Christ, we have entered into our Sabbath rest in Christ. Anyone who keeps a weekly sabbath is testifying against himself that he is still "under the law" and still has six days in which he is doing his own works. In Christ we do His works in everything we do, seven days a week.

 

[BobRyan]

In Heb 4 Paul says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

This is exactly what we find in the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 when it says that all Ten of the Ten Commandments are still the moral law of God, still binding on all saints today. (And C.H. Spurgeon affirms this continued TEN commandments point as well).

Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

In Heb 4:7 Paul makes the case that the SAME promise as given in Psalms 95:7 - REMAINS to this very day -- unchanged regarding the promised rest of God for the saints.

The idea that this meant David abolished the Law of God or the 4th commandment in Ps 95:7 is not affirmed or condoned by the Baptist Confession of Faith - nor by any other reputable theology today.

I am sure that pastor Reggie took note of this detail before leaping out into the unknown territory of accepting the Bible as it reads on the subject of the 4th commandment.

My guess is that if pastor Reggie also saw this next video giving RCC sources on this subject (the "other point of view") - he would feel somewhat confirmed in his idea that man-made tradition should not be allowed to replace the Word of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrB21mc2fmI

in Christ,

Bob

 

[saturneptune]

I don't know much

A hearty Amen

 

[BobRyan]

here we find some Bible agreement for the Baptist Confession of Faith --

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm



1. Under the new Covenant the LAW of God is "written on the heart" Heb 8 - instead of Abolished.

2. Under the "new Covenant" - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

3. Under the "new covenant" the "Saints are those who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

4. Under the "new covenant" "he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of breaking all" James 2.

5. Under the "new covenant" or faith does not ABOLISH the Law of God rather "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31

5. And the Baptist Confession of Faith is very clear that under the New Covenant the Ten Commandments REMAIN (yes all TEN) as the MORAL law of God binding on the saints.

And that the Genesis 2:3 act of making the 7th day holy (as quoted in Exodus 20:11) - was a command for the 4th commandment applicable to all mankind - even before the fall.

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in ten commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3

(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4
​

6. In Romans 6 Paul says that we are NOT to "sin" (are not to transgress the Law of God 1John 3:4) under Grace or else we are declaring ourselves to be the servants of sin - and are lost.

Romans 6

[FONT=&quot]10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11Even so consider yourselves to be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]dead to sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but alive to God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12Therefore [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not let [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin reign in your mortal body so that[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot] its lusts, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13and do not go on presenting the members of your [/FONT][FONT=&quot]body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]14For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin shall not be master over you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall we sin because we are not under law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but under grace[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]May it never be![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of the one whom you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17But thanks be to God that though [/FONT][FONT=&quot]you were slaves of sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18and having been freed from sin, you became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of righteousness[/FONT]

 

[The Biblicist]

here we find some Bible agreement for the Baptist Confession of Faith --

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm



1. Under the new Covenant the LAW of God is "written on the heart" Heb 8 - instead of Abolished.

2. Under the "new Covenant" - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

3. Under the "new covenant" the "Saints are those who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

4. Under the "new covenant" "he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of breaking all" James 2.

5. Under the "new covenant" or faith does not ABOLISH the Law of God rather "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31

5. And the Baptist Confession of Faith is very clear that under the New Covenant the Ten Commandments REMAIN (yes all TEN) as the MORAL law of God binding on the saints.

And that the Genesis 2:3 act of making the 7th day holy (as quoted in Exodus 20:11) - was a command for the 4th commandment applicable to all mankind - even before the fall.

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19



6. In Romans 6 Paul says that we are NOT to "sin" (are not to transgress the Law of God 1John 3:4) under Grace or else we are declaring ourselves to be the servants of sin - and are lost.

Romans 6

[FONT=&quot]10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11Even so consider yourselves to be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]dead to sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but alive to God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12Therefore [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not let [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin reign in your mortal body so that[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot] its lusts, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13and do not go on presenting the members of your [/FONT][FONT=&quot]body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]14For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin shall not be master over you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall we sin because we are not under law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but under grace[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]May it never be![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of the one whom you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17But thanks be to God that though [/FONT][FONT=&quot]you were slaves of sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18and having been freed from sin, you became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of righteousness[/FONT]

You are cherry picking statements out while ignoring the overall teaching of the confession the subjects you are selecting. That is called perversion and that is what you are doing. You have be brain dead to suggest that the 1689 confession of Faith teaches justification like the SDA or teaches the law as do the SDA. One merely needs to read their statement on justification, the Sabbath, salvation to see they completely repudiate the SDA salvation doctrine.

 

[TCassidy]

In Heb 4 Paul says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Yes, we rest in Christ from sin and its consequences now, and will rest in Christ from the presence of sin later in Heaven.

Either Christ fulfilled ALL the Law or He didn't. If He fulfilled ALL the Law our salvation is ALL by grace.

If He only fulfilled PART of the Law, then we must work to fulfill that which He could not or would not fulfill for us.

Salvation is either by grace or by works. The two can't be mixed.

"If righteousness could be gained through the law," Paul wrote, "Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:21).

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6).

 

[BobRyan]

here we find some Bible agreement for the Baptist Confession of Faith --

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm



1. Under the new Covenant the LAW of God is "written on the heart" Heb 8 - instead of Abolished.

2. Under the "new Covenant" - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

3. Under the "new covenant" the "Saints are those who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

4. Under the "new covenant" "he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of breaking all" James 2.

5. Under the "new covenant" or faith does not ABOLISH the Law of God rather "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31

5. And the Baptist Confession of Faith is very clear that under the New Covenant the Ten Commandments REMAIN (yes all TEN) as the MORAL law of God binding on the saints.

And that the Genesis 2:3 act of making the 7th day holy (as quoted in Exodus 20:11) - was a command for the 4th commandment applicable to all mankind - even before the fall.


====================================
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/.../1689.htm#Ch19

Quote:
19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in TEN Commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3

(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12.

For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10.

For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15.

For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17.

For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8.

For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12.

For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4

================================

You are cherry picking statements out while ignoring the overall teaching of the confession the subjects you are selecting. That is called perversion

You are resorting to name-calling without engaging in the inconvenient details that refute your views.

That is called ducking the point.

The not-so-subtle detail above that you hope name-calling would distract from - is that the Gen 2:3 statement of God is accepted in the Baptist Confession of Faith as the fact of the 4th Commandment Sabbath given to mankind before sin - and applicable to all mankind after the fall.

You have be brain dead to suggest that the 1689 confession of Faith teaches justification like

A+ on name-calling (once again)
F- on facts and quoting me saying something to make your case. You simply make stuff up when the facts are lacking as we see in the example above.

So "again" for the sake of focus.

The not-so-subtle detail above that you hope name-calling would distract from - is that the Gen 2:3 statement of God is accepted in the Baptist Confession of Faith as the fact of the 4th Commandment Sabbath given to mankind before sin - and applicable to all mankind after the fall.

As the objective unbiased reader will note -- the mere quote of it sends you into a fit of complaint.

The Baptist pastor in the video at the start of this thread - appears to be less opposed to the facts of the case.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Heb 4 Paul says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

This is exactly what we find in the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 when it says that all Ten of the Ten Commandments are still the moral law of God, still binding on all saints today. (And C.H. Spurgeon affirms this continued TEN commandments point as well).

Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

In Heb 4:7 Paul makes the case that the SAME promise as given in Psalms 95:7 - REMAINS to this very day -- unchanged regarding the promised rest of God for the saints.

The idea that this meant David abolished the Law of God or the 4th commandment in Ps 95:7 is not affirmed or condoned by the Baptist Confession of Faith - nor by any other reputable theology today.

I am sure that pastor Reggie took note of this detail before leaping out into the unknown territory of accepting the Bible as it reads on the subject of the 4th commandment.

My guess is that if pastor Reggie also saw this next video giving RCC sources on this subject (the "other point of view") - he would feel somewhat confirmed in his idea that man-made tradition should not be allowed to replace the Word of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrB21mc2fmI

Yes, we rest in Christ from sin and its consequences now, and will rest in Christ from the presence of sin later in Heaven.

Either Christ fulfilled ALL the Law or He didn't. If He fulfilled ALL the Law our salvation is ALL by grace.

No one doubts that Christ Loved God with all His heart (Deut 6:5) and Loved His Neighbor as Himself (Lev 19:18) - fulfilling all the requirement of what the Baptist Confession of Faith calls the "Moral Law" of God.

No one doubts that Jer 31:31-33 says that the LAW of God is "written on the heart" under the New Covenant and Paul affirms this again for us in Heb 8.

I think we all can agree with that.

ALL the demands for sinless perfection for one person as required by the Moral law - (the Ten Commandments included) - not just Love for God and Love for our neighbor was "Fulfilled" by Christ. So also Christ said to John "it is well that we fulfill ALL righteousness" at His baptism. Christ also fulfilled "ALL righteousness". But for the rest of us - "we HAVE all sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3. Thus what the Baptist Confession of Faith calls the "moral law of God" still exists and still shows that we are sinners needing a Savior. And so we come to Christ, are forgiven, are born again and by our faith "ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31 rather than by our faith "ABOLISH the Law of God" according to Paul so long as we persevere in the saved state as Paul says "According to my GOSPEL" Rom 2:16 will be shown to be the case for all the saints.

Rom 2
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

For as Christ points out it is not the one who SAYS "Lord Lord" that enters the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who "DOES" the will of the Father - he who HEARS the Words of God and "obeys".

Meeting the demands of prescriptive law (Moral law) is not the same as fulfilling predictive-law (ceremonial law). In the case of the Moral law - the prescription - the imperative - remains fully in force when it is complied with - but in the case of predictive law - the shadow yields.

As the Baptist Confession of Faith points out - the TEN Commandments are Moral Law - not predictive shadow law.

If He only fulfilled PART of the Law, then we must work to fulfill that which He could not or would not fulfill for us.

Salvation is either by grace or by works. The two can't be mixed.

The fact that we are bound to love God with all of our heart, or keep the 4th commandment or love our neighbor as ourselves under the New Covenant condition of Grace and the LAW written on the heart - and the fact of the saints "Establishing the LAW of God" Rom 3:31 by our faith rather than abolishing it - is not a claim to "salvation by works" -- it is a claim to the Matt 7 effect of "Good fruits SEEN to come from the good tree".

But that is the case of the saved.

Now lets "circle back" to the case of the lost. Are the lost saved when they Love their Neighbor?? Saved by Works?

"If righteousness could be gained through the law," Paul wrote, "Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:21).

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6).

-----

The answer has to be "no the lost cannot be saved by refusing to worship idols or loving their neighbor" they must be saved by Grace through faith.

I think we all get the point easily.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

here we find some Bible agreement for the Baptist Confession of Faith --

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm




You are resorting to name-calling without engaging in the inconvenient details that refute your views.

Do you know the difference between "name-calling" and accusing a person of perverting something? Apparently not! I never called you by any name whatsoever. I accused you of "cherry picking" and of "perversion" and these are indisputable facts.

If you think that going through a Baptist Confession of Faith and selecting statements here and there and then inferring that these statements support SDA doctrines that the very Confession repudiates when read in its fullness is anything less than perversion then you are in good company with Ellen G. White who did the very same thing in all her writings. She cherry picked statements from other writers WITHOUT GIVING THEM CREDIT and many times contrary to their overall teachings.

That is called ducking the point.

What???? I quoted part 12 of section 22 to prove you perverted their view of the Sabbath - they did not believe the Sabbath is Saturday and explicitly deny it is Saturday. However, you cherry picked parts and gave the inference that beleived SDA saturdayism.

What?? I quoted their full doctrine of justificaiton which completely repudiates the cherry picked statements you have quoted and are quoting from them.

That is not "ducking the point" that is exposing your perversion of their words, jerking them out of context - is what that is!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In Heb 4 Paul says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"
.................

Is the word "therefore"--because it refers to the cause or reason that "a Sabbath rest for the people of God remains"--not more important than its result, that "a Sabbath rest for the people of God remains"?

Can you tell us to what the word "therefore", therefore refers?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Do you know the difference between "name-calling" and accusing a person of perverting something? Apparently not! I never called you by any name whatsoever. I accused you of "cherry picking" and of "perversion" and these are indisputable facts.

If you think that going through a Baptist Confession of Faith and selecting statements here and there and then inferring that these statements support SDA doctrines that the very Confession repudiates when read in its fullness is anything less than perversion then you are in good company with Ellen G. White who did the very same thing in all her writings. She cherry picked statements from other writers WITHOUT GIVING THEM CREDIT and many times contrary to their overall teachings.

What???? I quoted part 12 of section 22 to prove you perverted their view of the Sabbath - they did not believe the Sabbath is Saturday and explicitly deny it is Saturday. However, you cherry picked parts and gave the inference that beleived SDA saturdayism.

What?? I quoted their full doctrine of justificaiton which completely repudiates the cherry picked statements you have quoted and are quoting from them.

That is not "ducking the point" that is exposing your perversion of their words, jerking them out of context - is what that is!

It is Bob Ryan's OLD trick or malady. He will NEVER budge. He is a SDA remember, and no SDA ever admits mistake or sin or weakness.

PS
But that does not excuse or justify (your) 'Sundayism'!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ALL the demands for sinless perfection for one person as required by the Moral law - (the Ten Commandments included) - not just Love for God and Love for our neighbor was "Fulfilled" by Christ. So also Christ said to John "it is well that we fulfill ALL righteousness" at His baptism. Christ also fulfilled "ALL righteousness". But for the rest of us - "we HAVE all sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3. Thus what the Baptist Confession of Faith calls the "moral law of God" still exists and still shows that we are sinners needing a Savior. And so we come to Christ, are forgiven, are born again and by our faith "ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31 rather than by our faith "ABOLISH the Law of God" according to Paul so long as we persevere in the saved state as Paul says "According to my GOSPEL" Rom 2:16 will be shown to be the case for all the saints.

I say this to my fellow NON-Seventh-day Adventists, Don't feel too smug when you argue with Bob Ryan. The Sabbath is not the big DISTINCTION between the SDAs and the rest of Christianity. No, it's the great COMMONALITY which the SDAs share with you the rest or greater part of Christendom, that SPOILS the outside nice-looking but inside ROTTEN apple ... like Bob Ryans' theologism quoted, proves. The worm is free-willism. [I can call it what I like. After all I am not a theologian or scholar, but God's rough and uneducated plumber ... more irritating and annoying than ever. What years of training does to a man!]

No! Not the Sabbath however legalistic and Judaistic the SDAs believe in is the core and cause of the rottenness; but the conceited idolum IDOL of universal 'Christian' free-willism.

 

[BobRyan]

here we find some Bible agreement for the Baptist Confession of Faith --

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm



1. Under the new Covenant the LAW of God is "written on the heart" Heb 8 - instead of Abolished.

2. Under the "new Covenant" - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

3. Under the "new covenant" the "Saints are those who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

4. Under the "new covenant" "he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of breaking all" James 2.

5. Under the "new covenant" or faith does not ABOLISH the Law of God rather "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31

5. And the Baptist Confession of Faith is very clear that under the New Covenant the Ten Commandments REMAIN (yes all TEN) as the MORAL law of God binding on the saints.

And that the Genesis 2:3 act of making the 7th day holy (as quoted in Exodus 20:11) - was a command for the 4th commandment applicable to all mankind - even before the fall.


====================================
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/.../1689.htm#Ch19

Quote:
19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in TEN Commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3

(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12.

For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10.

For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15.

For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17.

For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8.

For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12.

For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4

================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
You are cherry picking statements out while ignoring the overall teaching of the confession the subjects you are selecting. That is called perversion

You are resorting to name-calling without engaging in the inconvenient details that refute your views.

That is called ducking the point.

The not-so-subtle detail above that you hope name-calling would distract from - is that the Gen 2:3 statement of God is accepted in the Baptist Confession of Faith as the fact of the 4th Commandment Sabbath given to mankind before sin - and applicable to all mankind after the fall.

Do you know the difference between "name-calling" and accusing a person of perverting (obligatory rant deleted here)

As I stated above the mere quote of the document sends you reeling into a tirade - and ignoring almost every detail in the post.

For example - the detail I pointed out earlier regarding the fact that the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that Gen 2:3 is a statement a form of the 4th Commandment - and that the TEN Commandments are binding law written on the human heart ....

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/.../1689.htm#Ch19

Quote:
19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in TEN Commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3

(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12.

If you think that going through a Baptist Confession of Faith and selecting statements here and there and then inferring that these

Point of accuracy - you are the one inferring. I am the one writing the post - so at most I might imply.

So far I have done neither. I am pointing to undeniable fact in the text itself. You simply complain "that I noticed" the details you hoped to gloss over.

Surely you know that we can see that.

What???? I quoted part 12 of section 22 to prove you perverted their view of the Sabbath - they did not believe the Sabbath is Saturday

As R.C Sproul and even your own quote proves "to the contrary" they all admit that the 4th commandment was given by God - pointing to Saturday.

NONE of those authors goes around arguing that the Israel at Sinai - were all "keeping Sunday".

They all admit that the Bible Sabbath is the 7th day - Saturday and Sunday is the FIRST day of the week. Impossible to miss.

22.7 As it is the law of nature that a portion of time by God's appointment should be set apart for the worship of God, so in his Word he has given a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all people in all ages. In particular he has appointed one day in seven as a Sabbath to be kept holy to him.1 From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, but from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week which is called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.2

(1) Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; Mar 2:27-28; Rev 1:10
(2) Joh 20:1; Act 2:1; 20:7; 1Co 16:1; Rev 1:10; Col 2:16-17
​

They admit that a CHANGE was made in what the BIBLE states to be the Sabbath day - Saturday. Almost every Baptist on this board today - knows that the Bible Sabbath is Saturday.

Each time you seek to make a point here - it is found to be half-true.

Why do that as if you don't think I "will notice"???

We both know that I will indeed notice and will point to the flaw in your argument.

--- at the risk of repeating myself -- we do this "again" only this time with Spurgeon's own edit of the Baptist Confession of Faith and the fact that in the actual BIBLE the Sabbath is the SEVENTH day of the week - Saturday not the FIRST day of the week - SUNDAY.

As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

What?? I quoted their full doctrine of justificaiton which completely repudiates the cherry picked statements

Wrong again.

you simply "hope" that I will say something that is actually in error - and then (should I ever do that) you will be quick to actually quote the statement I make and show where it is in error.

It is not at all surprising that this is the very thing you do not do when it comes to justification.

Yet you want to make that your point of difference as if I had said something about the BCOF in that regard that was in error.

Why make stuff up - as if I am not going to notice that you are doing it?

There is a more compelling way to deal with the subject - why not choose it? You have free will - go ahead and make the choice to be objective and quote actual facts.

in Christ,

Bob