Baptist Purgatory - Part Two

We have addressed this a dozen times or more my friend.
You disagree.
You spiritualize passages which we do not.
Until we can agree on how a passage is to be understood, we really can have no meaningful dialogue.
You say "spiritual".
We say "literal".

How do you propose to get past that barrier?

Answer this one question reasonably and we can go a little further. Otherwise the discussion is dead in the water to begin with.

I am sorry friend.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

He does say it here.


Mt 18:30
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mt 18:31
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mt 18:32
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mt 18:33
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mt 18:34
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mt 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Now brother. I was kind enough to answer your question.
Would you be so kind as to answer mine? See my first post in this thread, and then answer me please.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Note the fact that the passage DOES NOT concern outer darkness NOR everlasting fire NOR hellfire NOR hell.

The Lord Jesus DID NOT say OR teach that ANYONE was cast into hellfire AND let out afterwards TO GO INTO LIFE.

The comparative passage is found in Matt.5 and Luke 12 which concerns PRISON (found in Matt.18) and HELLFIRE (not found in Matt.18), which is a GREATER JUDGMENT OF TWO WITHIN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, which is the SUBJECT in both contexts. (Matt.5, 18)

In that kingdom, they are OFFERING gifts (Matt.5) before JUDGES who sit on thrones (Matt.19, 12) judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The LAW goes forth from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2, Micah 4) and it will be KEPT or there will be "consequences".

RIGHTEOUS RULERS JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE LAW, along with Christ Jesus. (Psalm 122, Rev.20, Obadiah)

The passages are JEWISH in context, and have NO DOCTRINAL APPLICATION (eschatologically) to the members of the body of Christ.

 

Hi DeafPosttrib.

I know this will be a little off topic, I hope you don't mind. Anyway I was reading through your post here and came accross this statement:

How do you come to the conclusion that Revelation 20:1-7 is not literal?

When I examine the text I see no reason to believe that it is anything but literal. You have a clear outline of events:

1. Satan is bound (for 1,000 yrs)
2. Saints are raised
3. Saints reign with Christ (for 1,000 yrs)
4. The rest of the dead are raised at the end of the 1,000 yrs.
5. Satan is released after the thousand years are finished.

There seems to be no purely textual reason for saying that the thousand years are not literal.

You said:
"But it is a figurative meaning of very long period that the dead saints are currently reign with Christ in the heaven"

I have several problem with that statement.

1. The text does not say that it is a "very long period", rather it says it is a thousand years.

2. There is nothing current about the text. The text is clearly speaking of future events. How do I know this? It is talking about the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked) which certainly has not yet occured (Jn 5:25-29).

3. The text does not place this event in heaven, but on earth. If you notice in verses 8-10 we are told that these events are happening on earth. This is in-line with the Old Testament prophecies that Christ would literally reign upon this earth from Jerusalem (see Joel 3:16, etc).

For these reasons I cannot agree with your statement above.

You said:
" it already been almost 2,000 years, and probably it will be continue for the next another 1,000 years till around 3000 A.D. or 4000 A.D."

==This is a very good examle of post-millennial date setting. Jesus made several things very clear to us:

1. That He will come suddenly (Mk 13:37).
2. He will come unexpectedly (Mk 13:33, Matt 24:42-51).
3. That there will be signs (Matt 24:3ff).
4. That His coming could be long in coming (Matt 24:48).
5. That He will come when people are not thinking He will (Matt 25:13).
6. That nobody knows the time of His coming (Matt 24:42).

Your view of Revelation 20:1-7 is strange when I consider your remarks on Revelation 20:11-15 (which you seem to take very plainly).

In Christ,
Martin.

 

No sign of DPT?

Hmmm

In HIS service;
Jim

 

One of the shortcomings of the KJV is calling all the various temporary abodes "hell" except for paradise, of course. We have "sheol", Hebrew, "the grave", "hades", the Greek for sheol, and the temporary abode of the wicked dead, "tartaros", the temporary abode of the angels who sinned, and "gehenna", the lake of fire, the true eternal hell.

The Greek reads, "death(thanatos) and HADES were cast into the LOF" If hades were hell, how could it be cast into itself? With GOD, all things are possible, but that's not something He's gonna do. Hades is separate from gehenna, but it's no vacation haven, either.

Those who doubt...Read the Scriptures closely. read JESUS' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus. Was the rich man in hades gonna get a second chance? Was his punishment temporary, with his later ending up in heaven ? Newp! He was being kept in hades awaiting the White Throne judgment and final sentence into gehenna FOREVER!

All legends of "purgatory" have pagan origins, and, along with such pagan things as egg-laying Easter bunnies and "queen of heaven", were adopted into the RCC as a "boogerman" to extort more money from the parishioners. Unfortunately, these myths spread outside the RCC so that even a few Baptists believe them.

Let me say it again...NO PURGATORY OF ANY KIND IS FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!!!!!!!!!! When you're hot, YOU'RE HOT!!!

 

Roby,

I was wondering why you conclude that Gehenna is the eternal LOF and not the (temporary) underworld (KJV-hell). I believe that Hades, Sheol, and Gehenna are all in the heart of the Earth and (if not synonomous terms - Hell) are all cast into the LOF.

Lacy

 

As I have said, the doctrine of Millenial exclusion does not stand or fall on the "hell" issue. Not all who believe in the accountability teaching believe(d) that those who miss the Kingdom end up in the underworld. (Zane Hodges, Charles Stanley, A E Wilson, etc.)


DPT, we need to discus what you believe about salvation. If a Christian can loose his salvation, then tell me what possible sins could overpower the blood of Christ? What sins are so bad that they undo grace? If you fornicate do you lose it right then? Can you get it back? Can we be saved, then unsaved then saved again over and over?

lacy

 

Because, Lacy:

Revelation 20:13, NKJV "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades(KJV-hell) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."

Revelation 20:14, NKJV "Then Death and Hades(KJV-hell) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Tartarus isn't mentioned, but I'm guessing the angels who sinned were in the same boat as the AC, false prophet, and the devil...they went straight to hell, didn't pass Go, didn't collect $200. Clearly, hades/sheol is a temporary abode of the wicked dead. Now, whether the degree of punishment is the same in hades as it is in the LOF, I dunno & don't wanna find out unless Jesus or someone else already in heaven tells me!

Hope this answers your question!

Wonder if hell is not only in the center of the earth, but in another dimension which we cannot enter nor anyone leave? Guess Jesus will tell me some time if He chooses.

 

Silly me, I didn’t know that the AV had any “shortcomings”. but I did notice that your understanding of hell in Rev.20 and the Lake of Fire is flawed.

Gehenna IS NOT the lake of fire, as delineated in Rev.20. How do I know? Simple. It SAYS they are cast into the lake of fire, not hell. The ONLY HELL is a PLACE (OT or NT) which is under your feet INSIDE THE EARTH.

Your question is easily answered due to your understanding being flawed. It is NOT being cast into itself (you’ve already MADE a false assumption which clouds the truth). HELL CONCERNS BODIES AND SOULS IN THE OT AND NT. (Death and hell) Death concerns the grave where BODIES go, while the SOULS concern those IN HELLFIRE. The terms are USED as the place which is associated with PEOPLE who have EXPERIENCED them. (One of them Greek whatchamadiggies!) Example. Woe unto thee Chorazin! (Matt.11) The city represents the people.

The Lord was careful to let you know that HELL (hades) is a place of torment with fire, where the dead go (Luke 16), and that GEHENNA is a PORTION of that place which is connected with FIRE . (Gehenna-fire) Everybody DOES NOT go to the place of FIRE, as is evident from Luke 16. The place of the DEAD has compartments, which is evident by the separation of angels in tartarus, (2 Peter 1), those of YESTERYEAR, who are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (Jude), and those of the OT who went elsewhere until the Lord LED captivity captive from the PRISON. (Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc.) Eph.4, Isaiah 61

There are people there WHO ARE NOT IN FIRE. (Zech.9) There are WICKED PEOPLE in a prison. (1 Peter 3)

There is another associated term called the BOTTOMLESS PIT (Rev.20), for it is called hell, defined as the pit in Isaiah 14.

Those King James translators were correct WITHOUT contradiction. Imagine that.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

[ April 18, 2005, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]

 

I agree that "Hades" is not the final place for the unsaved. But the scripture you mentioned (Rev. 20) does not mention Gehenna. Why do you think Gehenna is the (final) Lake of Fire and not rather just another name for "hades/sheol"?
I believe Hades/Sheol/Gehenna/Tartarus (HELL) is cast into another place called the Lake of Fire in Rev 20.

Lacy

PS. OH My! I agreed with Carl.

 

Amen, brother!

It's good to know that you're on the RIGHT TRACK concerning this.

Hopefully you'll be submissive to the Holy Scriptures in other areas.



In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Here is a portion of an article I posted on this very subject in another forum on January 3, 2003. Maybe this will help to clear things up.

"Gehenna, or Hinnom, is a valley south of Jerusalem where the backslidden, idolatrous Jews at certain points in history sacrificed their children by fire to Molech and Baal. This valley later became the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem, and it is said that fires were kept constantly burning for the destruction of the filth thrown there. In most of its occurrences in the NT, Gehenna refers to the place of the lost.

Hades is the Greek word used to denote the unseen place of the dead. All the dead go there. However, there is a separation in that the evil dead are in torment while the righteous dead are not (see Luke 16:19-31).

Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead. As with the Greek Hades, all the dead go there. It is the abode of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead (Psalms 9:17; 16:10; 30:3; 31:17 are just a few references). Sheol is described as dark (Job 10:21-22), deep (Job 11:8 ) and barred (Job 17:16). The dead also go down to it (Numbers 16:30, 33; Ezekiel 31:15-17).

Okay, the original question was "Did Christ descend into hell?" Well, the answer is both yes and no. It depends on your definition of hell. Jesus did go to the grave as in the abode of the dead. While on the Cross, Jesus promised the penitent thief they would be together in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). I have found no evidence to support the theory that Jesus went into the part of Sheol/Hades where the wicked are tormented.

Christ was the first to break the bonds of death and the grave. He rose from the grave. Many think that when Christ conquered the bonds of death and the grave that He led the righteous dead to another place prepared for them. Christ had to be the first to conquer the grave or else His death and resurrection would not have been needed in order for OT saints to be rewarded. God had something better in mind for them (and for us), so the righteous dead were held until Christ came to free them (see Psalms 68:18 and Ephesians 4:7-10).

If, in fact, there is a new paradise where the righteous dead go, where is it? Many of today's fundamentalist Christian churches teach that it is "up" but can't say exactly where it is. The fact that Jesus ascended when He left the earth (Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:9-11) gives credence to this idea. In John 6:62 Jesus is spoken of as ascending. Romans 10:6 speaks of ascending into heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:4 speaks of being caught up to Paradise. And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 Paul speaks of being "well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8 NKJV), indicating that, when we die in Christ, we go to be with Him.

Many think that Christ gave a second chance to those who were lost and in the grave, but I find no evidence that this is so. Look at the story of Lazarus and the rich man once again (Luke 16:19-31). Did this event actually occur? I don't know. But whether Lazarus and the rich man were real people or not doesn't really matter. What does matter is the truth that Jesus taught through this parable. Once we have passed from this life into eternity, there is absolutely NO WAY to go from one place to the other. If we could go from one place to the other, everyone who ends up in torment would elect to go away from that terrible place. Everyone. Period. And if this were an option, it would mean that no one would receive their "just deserts" after death. It would make Christ's death and resurrection of absolutely no consequence. And since there is no way for us to go from one place to the other after we die, the ideas of purgatory and praying the dead "out of hell" are soundly disproved.

There will be an eternal "lake of fire" created at a later date. The grave (Sheol/Hades) will give up its dead so that they may face the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the world. Those whose names are not written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" will be sentenced to an eternity of fire and torment along with Satan and the fallen angels (Revelation 20:11-15). This place does not exist yet, but its permanence and the scope of its torment are reality."

 

Amen, brother!

It's good to know that you're on the RIGHT TRACK concerning this.

Hopefully you'll be submissive to the Holy Scriptures in other areas.



In Christ Jesus,
Carl [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]