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Baptist Traditions? Drinking alcohol & dancing
- Thread starter KPBAP
- Start date
I just had a "Bible church" person tell me that we were the same as them until I mentioned drinking and dancing ...
such is life: I understand that it mostly came from the "wild west" days of early Texas life ... the feel I always got growing up was, "You can't dance without going to a dance hall. And you can't go to a dance hall without there being alcohol, sin, and probably a shooting or two."
such is life: I understand that it mostly came from the "wild west" days of early Texas life ... the feel I always got growing up was, "You can't dance without going to a dance hall. And you can't go to a dance hall without there being alcohol, sin, and probably a shooting or two."
KP,
traditionally Baptists have tried to hold to high standards of separation and abstaining from all appearance of evil. (In more recent years a more liberal attitude has started to creep in, in some places.)
The Bible DOES say to avoid strong drink, to not be controlled by anything but the Holy Spirit, and to not be caught up in things that would distract, or that could cause you to lose your Christian testimony.
Dancing these days, you must admit, is most often NOT a waltz or tapdancing. It is something far more sensual, and not something which a Christian ought to engage in UNLESS it is alone in your living room with your spouse.
Going to a dancing hall (bar, club, etc) comes with an assumption (by the world) that alcohol is present and most likely a part of your activity....so it presents a serious compromise of any testimony you might have to those watching you....and believe me, there ARE people watching you whether they ever confront you over it or not.
In the very least they will look at these actions and say in their mind, "Hes a Christian and he does the same things I do....so what's the big deal about being a Christian?"
While I don't hold to "Lifestyle Evangelism", I DO hold to having a good testimony behind your witnessing to others.
This is why we typically hold to no drinking and no dancing. Now, if a person is still fighting hard for their "right" to drink and dance than I believe they have been saved and are standing on the brink looking back at what they were saved from, wishfully wanting to be a part of all that still.
Far better it would be if they would turn their back completely from all that and throw themselves into the abundant life that God wants to give them over here, one of being busy doing God's will.
Im not perfect, by any means, don't get me wrong....but our family is so busy trying to help in our church and keep doing what we know is right, that we most certainly don't miss any kind of drinking or dancing activities that we might have been involved in otherwise.
Get busy doing what God wants, and these other issues just sort of fall by the wayside.
traditionally Baptists have tried to hold to high standards of separation and abstaining from all appearance of evil. (In more recent years a more liberal attitude has started to creep in, in some places.)
The Bible DOES say to avoid strong drink, to not be controlled by anything but the Holy Spirit, and to not be caught up in things that would distract, or that could cause you to lose your Christian testimony.
Dancing these days, you must admit, is most often NOT a waltz or tapdancing. It is something far more sensual, and not something which a Christian ought to engage in UNLESS it is alone in your living room with your spouse.
Going to a dancing hall (bar, club, etc) comes with an assumption (by the world) that alcohol is present and most likely a part of your activity....so it presents a serious compromise of any testimony you might have to those watching you....and believe me, there ARE people watching you whether they ever confront you over it or not.
In the very least they will look at these actions and say in their mind, "Hes a Christian and he does the same things I do....so what's the big deal about being a Christian?"
While I don't hold to "Lifestyle Evangelism", I DO hold to having a good testimony behind your witnessing to others.
This is why we typically hold to no drinking and no dancing. Now, if a person is still fighting hard for their "right" to drink and dance than I believe they have been saved and are standing on the brink looking back at what they were saved from, wishfully wanting to be a part of all that still.
Far better it would be if they would turn their back completely from all that and throw themselves into the abundant life that God wants to give them over here, one of being busy doing God's will.
Im not perfect, by any means, don't get me wrong....but our family is so busy trying to help in our church and keep doing what we know is right, that we most certainly don't miss any kind of drinking or dancing activities that we might have been involved in otherwise.
Get busy doing what God wants, and these other issues just sort of fall by the wayside.
This is a great sermon about drinking alcohol..
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=8405104120
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=8405104120
Brother Ian
Active Member
I think there are only two places in Scripture that recommend drinking. One is in the Psalms I think where the writer instructs wine be given to a dying man to ease his pain. The other is Paul's instruction to Timothy to take a little wine for thy stomach's sake. It is widely believed that Timothy had a gastrointestinal problem such as dsysentary (sp?).
Drinking to get drunk is always condemned in Scripture.
Paul said that while all things were lawful for him, not all things were expedient. When this subject comes up in Sunday School, I ask my class (young married couples) what they would think of me if they saw me drinking. In every case they tell me they would be horrified. Why? Because I have a testimony that would cause others to stumble if they saw me doing somthing they thought to be wrong. I am certainly not perfect, but there are some things that it is better to stay way on the conservative side of an issue.
I sure would to cause someone to stumble based on what they saw in me.
Drinking to get drunk is always condemned in Scripture.
Paul said that while all things were lawful for him, not all things were expedient. When this subject comes up in Sunday School, I ask my class (young married couples) what they would think of me if they saw me drinking. In every case they tell me they would be horrified. Why? Because I have a testimony that would cause others to stumble if they saw me doing somthing they thought to be wrong. I am certainly not perfect, but there are some things that it is better to stay way on the conservative side of an issue.
I sure would to cause someone to stumble based on what they saw in me.
So what do you do with verses like Luke 5:37-39 that tells us that the "old" wine is better than the "new" wine (older is more alcoholic)? Or where wine and other strong drink is encouraged to be bought AND DRANK in the presence of the Lord (Deut. 14;26)? Or in Numbers 6:3 where it gives a clear difference between wine and grape juice? Or Isaiah 25:6 where the Lord Himself will prepare us a feast with the best wine? Or Luke 7:33-35 where Jesus Himself showed the difference between His and John the Baptist's style of ministry where John abstained from wine and was called a lunatic, and where Jesus didn't abstain and was called a drunk? Nowhere in scripture is alcohol in itself called sinful, only drunkeness
KPBAP asked:
"Was this 'tradition' created from the prohibition days of the early 20th century?"
A bit earlier, but yes.
When Baptists were moving west and south in the early 19th century, it was common (and an economic necessity) to convert grain into alcohol.
Baptists, like Methodists and other Protestant groups, began to sign on to the temperance movement after the Civil War. By 1887, the SBC Temperance Committee could proclaim:
"RESOLVED, That as representatives of the great Baptist brotherhood of the South in convention assembled, we do solemnly protest against the manufacture and sale of ardent spirits as a beverage, and will use our influence in every proper and legitimate way for its suppression and prohibition.
RESOLVED, That, disclaiming all intention of giving to this report any political signification, we express our sympathy with friends of prohibition in the States of Tennessee and Texas in their present efforts to overthrow this evil in their respective commonwealths, and with our prayers, influence and efforts will do all we can to give them success.
That was followed in 1890 by an SBC resolution:
"RESOLVED, By the Southern Baptist Convention assembled, that we are unalterably opposed to the sale of intoxicating liquor, as a beverage, either under high or low license."
By 1896, the SBC was on record as favoring disfellowship of church members who drank or sold liquor:
"RESOLVED, That we, the members of the Southern Baptist Convention, reassert our truceless and uncompromising hostility to the manufacture, sale, importation and transportation, of alcoholic beverages in any and all their forms. We regard the policy of issuing government licenses for the purpose of carrying on the liquor traffic as a sin against God and a dishonor to our people. We furthermore announce it as our conviction that we should by all legitimate means oppose the liquor traffic in municipality, county, State, and nation.
Furthermore, we announce it as the sense of this body that no person should be retained in the fellowship of a Baptist church who engages in the manufacture or sale of alcoholic liquors, either at wholesale or retail, who invests his money in the manufacture or sale of alcoholic liquors, or who rents his property to be used for distilleries, wholesale liquor houses, or saloons. Nor do we believe that any church should retain in its fellowship any member who drinks intoxicating liquors as a beverage, or visits saloons or drinking places for the purpose of such indulgence."
There were voices of dissent. In The Tennessee Encyclopedia of History and Culture, W. Calvin Dickinson of Tennessee Technological University recounts the following story:
"In February 1887 the Tennessee Temperance Alliance held a convention in Nashville to organize county committees statewide to generate public support for the amendment when presented to the voters for the final referendum. Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches participated in the campaign. In Morgan County, for example, Reverend A. B. Wright, a circuit rider in the Upper Cumberland region, served as chairman. For two weeks, he made speeches in favor of the prohibition amendment to groups assembled in schoolhouses and churches. When he arrived at an engagement scheduled at the Baptist Church in Sunbright, he discovered the preacher and his father had 'locked us out,' and he was forced to speak at a nearby building."
"Was this 'tradition' created from the prohibition days of the early 20th century?"
A bit earlier, but yes.
When Baptists were moving west and south in the early 19th century, it was common (and an economic necessity) to convert grain into alcohol.
Baptists, like Methodists and other Protestant groups, began to sign on to the temperance movement after the Civil War. By 1887, the SBC Temperance Committee could proclaim:
"RESOLVED, That as representatives of the great Baptist brotherhood of the South in convention assembled, we do solemnly protest against the manufacture and sale of ardent spirits as a beverage, and will use our influence in every proper and legitimate way for its suppression and prohibition.
RESOLVED, That, disclaiming all intention of giving to this report any political signification, we express our sympathy with friends of prohibition in the States of Tennessee and Texas in their present efforts to overthrow this evil in their respective commonwealths, and with our prayers, influence and efforts will do all we can to give them success.
That was followed in 1890 by an SBC resolution:
"RESOLVED, By the Southern Baptist Convention assembled, that we are unalterably opposed to the sale of intoxicating liquor, as a beverage, either under high or low license."
By 1896, the SBC was on record as favoring disfellowship of church members who drank or sold liquor:
"RESOLVED, That we, the members of the Southern Baptist Convention, reassert our truceless and uncompromising hostility to the manufacture, sale, importation and transportation, of alcoholic beverages in any and all their forms. We regard the policy of issuing government licenses for the purpose of carrying on the liquor traffic as a sin against God and a dishonor to our people. We furthermore announce it as our conviction that we should by all legitimate means oppose the liquor traffic in municipality, county, State, and nation.
Furthermore, we announce it as the sense of this body that no person should be retained in the fellowship of a Baptist church who engages in the manufacture or sale of alcoholic liquors, either at wholesale or retail, who invests his money in the manufacture or sale of alcoholic liquors, or who rents his property to be used for distilleries, wholesale liquor houses, or saloons. Nor do we believe that any church should retain in its fellowship any member who drinks intoxicating liquors as a beverage, or visits saloons or drinking places for the purpose of such indulgence."
There were voices of dissent. In The Tennessee Encyclopedia of History and Culture, W. Calvin Dickinson of Tennessee Technological University recounts the following story:
"In February 1887 the Tennessee Temperance Alliance held a convention in Nashville to organize county committees statewide to generate public support for the amendment when presented to the voters for the final referendum. Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches participated in the campaign. In Morgan County, for example, Reverend A. B. Wright, a circuit rider in the Upper Cumberland region, served as chairman. For two weeks, he made speeches in favor of the prohibition amendment to groups assembled in schoolhouses and churches. When he arrived at an engagement scheduled at the Baptist Church in Sunbright, he discovered the preacher and his father had 'locked us out,' and he was forced to speak at a nearby building."
emeraldctyangel
New Member
Ive danced in many a dance hall, country style and never been 'sensual' with my partner while dancing. I also do not drink, and they do serve pretty decent cold water in the places I have been.
In the very least if someone looks at my actions and thinks they are the same as me, and still manages a hang over the next day, they are way way off in their perceptions.
LarryN,
To this day there are places all over the world making and distributing wine that contains no alcohol. It is quite common, though probably not here in the States. And yes, its called wine, though it is non-alcoholic. Its a very old, traditional method of winemaking, which I know nothing about.....I only know its there...lol Sorry I don't know more.
So then, LarryN, what I do with that passage is I understand that the word wine does not always mean alcohol.
To this day there are places all over the world making and distributing wine that contains no alcohol. It is quite common, though probably not here in the States. And yes, its called wine, though it is non-alcoholic. Its a very old, traditional method of winemaking, which I know nothing about.....I only know its there...lol Sorry I don't know more.
So then, LarryN, what I do with that passage is I understand that the word wine does not always mean alcohol.
emeralcty,
your experience is anecdotal....it doesn't mean that that experience is how itis for the most part. And didn't I say "usually"?
Also, if you can go there, and not drink and do bad things, I understand thats your Christian liberty. I just would rather not have my Christian liberty become a stumblingblock for someone else. And just because no one has ever said anything to you, does not mean that it hasn't happened.
The vast majority of people will not come up to you and say anything, especially if its some guy who visited your church once and recognizes you only from seeing you sitting up there in the choir.
We are watched by the world far more than we realize.
your experience is anecdotal....it doesn't mean that that experience is how itis for the most part. And didn't I say "usually"?
Also, if you can go there, and not drink and do bad things, I understand thats your Christian liberty. I just would rather not have my Christian liberty become a stumblingblock for someone else. And just because no one has ever said anything to you, does not mean that it hasn't happened.
The vast majority of people will not come up to you and say anything, especially if its some guy who visited your church once and recognizes you only from seeing you sitting up there in the choir.
We are watched by the world far more than we realize.
see LarryN,
my position is that I don't need to have the Bible spell it out for me. Im going to take the warnings of God and stay as far away as I can from the possibility of alcohol taking over my life.
If a person is continuing in drinking alcohol, I would they are in the least unwise for at least two reasons.
1) its a bad testimony, and can cause others around you to stumble
2) it can, and too often does, lead to addiction
Please remember, in my first post I was only spelling out what I know of the Baptist reasons for condemning the use of alcohol.
Remember too, this is not a salvation discussion. (Not that you've gone there, but alot of times thats where these discussions somehow wind up.)
my position is that I don't need to have the Bible spell it out for me. Im going to take the warnings of God and stay as far away as I can from the possibility of alcohol taking over my life.
If a person is continuing in drinking alcohol, I would they are in the least unwise for at least two reasons.
1) its a bad testimony, and can cause others around you to stumble
2) it can, and too often does, lead to addiction
Please remember, in my first post I was only spelling out what I know of the Baptist reasons for condemning the use of alcohol.
Remember too, this is not a salvation discussion. (Not that you've gone there, but alot of times thats where these discussions somehow wind up.)
Earlier, you stated:
Now, you state:
Which is it bapmom? You want to have things both ways.
---------------------------------------------
A sermon by Marc Monte was brought up in this thread. BTW, years ago I knew Marc and his brother Mike.
I listened to this sermon shortly after it was added to the sermonaudio website. Marc basically says this: "When 'wine' is spoken of favorably in the Bible, it's always referring to non-alcoholic grape juice. When 'wine' is spoken of unfavorably in the Bible, it's always referring to the alcoholic beverage."
How is this any better than the exegesis of rank liberals & modernists? They also believe what they like in the Bible, and disbelieve what they don't like!
LarryN,
You're right, the Bible says to avoid strong drink, but earlier it mentions strong drink as something that people might buy. Why can't it be just that? God is including it in what people of that day sometimes bought with their money. That doesn't necessarily mean that God completely approved of it, does it?
And what are you trying to prove? I mean, what is your point?
I didn't actually listen to Bro. Monte's sermon that was linked to, I merely commented that I knew his brother and consider him to be a good man. That doesn't mean I would follow him around blindly acquiescing to everything he says.
Ive spent quite a bit of time in the company of his brother Mike, outside of a church setting. I know what he's like, can't say that Im always all that comfortable around him, but hey....he is challenging, you have to give him that. He'll make you think, and probably make you mad. (general "you")
You're right, the Bible says to avoid strong drink, but earlier it mentions strong drink as something that people might buy. Why can't it be just that? God is including it in what people of that day sometimes bought with their money. That doesn't necessarily mean that God completely approved of it, does it?
And what are you trying to prove? I mean, what is your point?
I didn't actually listen to Bro. Monte's sermon that was linked to, I merely commented that I knew his brother and consider him to be a good man. That doesn't mean I would follow him around blindly acquiescing to everything he says.
Ive spent quite a bit of time in the company of his brother Mike, outside of a church setting. I know what he's like, can't say that Im always all that comfortable around him, but hey....he is challenging, you have to give him that. He'll make you think, and probably make you mad. (general "you")