Baptists - Why Do You Do It?

My dear Brother Robert, is this a trick question?

Four of your five questions are answered in the New Testament.

The Scriptures support the notion that churches were responsible for their own decisions. Matthew 18:17, Acts 6:2-3, Acts 11:22, Acts 15:3, Acts 15:22, 2 Corinthians 8:19, etc.

The above references also apply to this as the Greek word for church is ekklesia which can be interpreted assembly. I'll throw in one more that shows congregationalism in action: 2Corinthians 2:6

This one comes from tradition, but we do know that Christ was resurrected on the day following the Jewish Sabbath, Sunday.

My church uses grape juice, but nonetheless the Lord's Supper is observed as a remembrance as stated in 1Corinthians 11:24.

We observe Baptism out of obedience and the Lord's Supper out of remembrance.

I will now sit back and wait for you to set the hook.

 

Could you provide me with a reference for this, Dr. Griffin?

 

I thought about Robert's post today. The question "why do you do certain things" was answered "because the Bible teaches it." This begs the real question of "why do we try to follow these Biblical models and examples rather than developing a different system?"

Perhaps that was the intent of this thread in the first place.

 

1. Why do you believe in local church autonomy?

It's biblical.

2. Why do you have congregational church government?

I wouldn't exactly call it government, but people that help make the church run smoothly. The different callings are biblical.

3. Why do you worship on the first day of the week?
Because that's when my church holds services. If they held them on Tuesday I'd go on Tuesday.

4. Why do you use unleavened bread & wine in the Lord's supper?

I guess I don't, I haven't participated in a long time. I'm not a member yet of the church I'm going to so I can't, and at the old one the pastor had me so scared I'd get really physically sick from it if I was unworthy I always managed to be in the nursery or elsewhere...then they'd hunt me down and offer it and I'd still have to say no, but at least it wasn't in front of everyone!

5. Why do you have two church ordinances?

I didn't know we did. OH. Communion and baptism? On communion, Jesus said to. Maybe. I don't quite get it, usually you do something in rememberance of someone who had died, but he rose again, but it says that and even if he meant it only for the disciples present at the time I don't know for sure so I'd stick with it anyway.
Baptism, he said believe and be baptized. So there's not much question to that one.

I know, I know, I'm a wreck.
Gina

 

Does a trick question warrant a trick answer?
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1. Why do you believe in local church autonomy?
2. Why do you have congregational church government?
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Biblical concepts

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3. Why do you worship on the first day of the week?
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The only passage of scripture talking about the "first day" is Acts 20:7. Even with this there is some discussion about when that first day was, using either the Jewish reckoning of time or the Greek reckoning; whether the day starts after sundown....or the next day....

Then we have Rom 14:5ff where we read: "One man esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let everyman be fully assured in his own mind."

This aside, history tells us that the early Christians habitually met on Sundays to break bread......History also tells us that Constantine declared Sunday a holiday. Prior to this neither Saturday nor Sunday was a holiday.

I think the modern church continued with the Sunday practice as did society at large in observing Sunday as a day of respite from labours; factories, shops and all places of business stopped on the "Lord's Day".
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4. Why do you use unleavened bread & wine in the Lord's supper?
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Unleavened bread in cubes can be bought in some church supply houses along with special communion wine (no-alcoholic). Some churches use grape juice, which is loaded with sugar and a threat to diabetics.... in such cases, I have used water to represent the wine. I don't partake in "other" churches.
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5. Why do you have two church ordinances?
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The only two ordinances commanded in scripture

Cheers,

Jim

"Even a fish wouldn't get caught if it kept its mouth closed."

 

1. Why do you believe in local church autonomy?
It's biblical

2. Why do you have congregational church government?
Also biblical

3. Why do you worship on the first day of the week?
In Genesis it says after God created the world on the seventh day he rested... We are also suppose to rest from all our labors. I'm sure the day of worship has changed over the ages as the calendar has and I guess that is what I have been taught.

4. Why do you use unleavened bread & wine in the Lord's supper?
Because that is also biblical... Unleavened bread and wine... Not grape juice

5. Why do you have two church ordinances?
Actually I think the church has three... Baptism by immersion... The Lord Supper... And Feet Washing

Actually when you come to think of it... It might have been handed down from generation to generation... What we have been taught and how we were raised... btw I'm forth generation Primitive Baptist!... It's possible I could have been something else?... Boy that's scary!... Brother Glen

[ January 29, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

As to the issue of following Biblical examples concerning congrgationalism, etc, I think the view is generally taken that the New testament accounts are just that, examples. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." - 2Timothy 3:16-17

Even in the New Testament we see instances of an evolving of practice. For example, in Acts 4:34-35 we see that the primitive church practiced an almost communal type living, and indeed there have been Baptist communes even as recently as the last century. However, this practice is not shown to last as Paul speaks to the Corinthians in 1Corinthians 16:1 about a collection and his letter to Philemon is addressed to a slave owner. The communal system did not last very long.

As for your example of the plurality of elders, in many larger churches, there is even now a pastoral staff. In smaller churches having a plurality of elders would be redundant. Even the term "elders" may have been a hangover from Judaism as we see many accounts in the Old Testament where the city's elders would convene, usually at a gate.

I believe the modern pastor is more equivalent to a prophet. To "prophecy" is to preach, that is to say, to speak what the Lord has layed on your heart. I looked up "elders" in the Greek Lexicon and found this definition:

Do you have any other examples of variances from Apostolic teaching in mind?

 

For humane reasons, all the barbs on my fish hooks have been removed.....

I think the regular Baptist church is in line with apostolic practices as they fit into a modern setting.

I don't view social evolution as a bad thing and out of sorts with biblical concepts or apostolic ideas.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Absolutely not! I am talking about modernity. For example, the Sunday School movement is not apostolic. It was started by a British bobbie who saw the need to teach the urchins of East London and started the Sunday School movement. Certainly a good move within the framework of the local church. Moving into modernity; the social evolution.

This is not moving away from the NT principles of teaching and evangelizing.

Cheers,

Jim

 

One quick question while I chew on your last post: is there any reference to elders being ordained (having hands laid on them) as deacons were in Acts 6? Is the practice of ordaining ministers directly referenced in the Scriptures? I ask because In Acts 18 & 19 we see the Apostles speaking in Ephesus and then suddenly in Acts 20, Paul is addressing this group of elders. These were new converts. By what criteria did this council come into being? In 1Timothy 2:6 Paul instruct Timothy that an overseer should not be a new convert. Theory? Comment?

This brings to mind another example of a practice that perhaps we do not follow as closely. The laying of hands was used much more in Acts than in the modern church. Hands were laid on new converts (Acts 8:17), when sending out missionaries (Acts 13:3), healing the sick (Acts 28:8). This is a practice that Christ used as well, showing from whom the power imparted (Matthew 8:3, 14-15).

 

Questions 1 & 2, because they seem to be the New Testament pattern
Question 3 That's when we have the services, relatively few people prevented by work or school commitments. - and there are 7th day baptists.
Question 4 The bread we usually use isn't unleaven, it's just the ordinary stuff from the supermarket. and we usually use an horribly sweet red coloured fruit juice ... not wine.
Question 5 Communion for rememberance, baptism for commitment, BOTH as act of obediance, and they are the two clearly identified in the new testament.

Regards
Bob

 

Thank you Dr. Griffin. I do not wish to derail Brother Robert's thread with a discussion of elders but I would like to explore this notion a bit further. I find in Titus 1:5 that Titus was charged with the task of appointing elders.

From what I can find, the church in Ephesus was established from Paul teaching in the already established synagogue. We find this account, as previously stated, in Acts 19 & 20. This was Paul's second missionary journey and I do not see how too many years could have passed between the first conversions and the account cited in Acts 20:13-38 {Paul's address to the elders of Ephesus). However, as this was an already established synagogue, would the elders herein mentioned have been the original Jewish elders of that assembly? It appears that by the time Paul gives this farewell address this a well established council. As a side note, we also find that this same church needed reprimand in Revelation 2:1-7.

The church in Crete,however, seems to have been established hastily on Paul's fourth missionary journey. We find the account of Paul visiting there in Acts 27:7. Paul was on his way to Rome at the time and seems to have been evangelizing enroute. Hence the Letter to Titus speaks of "unfinished business" in verse 1:5. There is no mention of an established Judaistic base. Therefore it is possible that a church polity was being built from the ground up under the direction of Titus as opposed to a theological policy change in Ephesus, and hence, a need to appoint a council of elders. This theory does support Robert's notion of the plurality of elders as a necessary element in the early church.

It appears that Paul wrote the Letter to Titus after his first imprisonment in Rome as referenced in 3:12 and Acts 28. The fact that Paul would "Winter in Nicopolis" indicates that he was free to roam and thus not imprisoned.

So this time frame of establishing a church in Crete and appointing (I have not found the word "ordaining" or a seperate laying of hands) elders, or at least the charge to Titus, was not necessarily that many years at all. Acts 28 indicates that Paul was imprisoned for a mere two years. He was imprisoned again a mer five years later. The entirity of Paul's second missionary journey (Acts 15:40 - 18:23) which spanned about 2000 (roughly estimated) miles was three years (49 - 52 AD). However, Paul returned to Ephesus on his third journey (53 -57 AD). It was then that he learned that the church had not received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6). Thus the time spent at Ephesus from receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:6 to Paul's depature in Acts 20:38 was probably no more than the two years spoken of in Acts 19:10. Paul also on this journey visited Rhodes, Caesarea, Jerusalem, Tarsus, Derbe, Lystra, Iconium, Antioch, Troas, Neapolis, Phillipi, Amphipolis, Apollonia, Thessalonica and Barea, coming back to his starting point in Athens. That is a rather full agenda for a four year journey with two years devoted to one church.

I think I got my facts straight!

Robert, my apologies for the derailing of your topic.