Beyond Calvin and Arminius, both were partly correct

[Alfred Persson.]

God is Omniscient and therefore knew the names of His elect and non-elect before creating anything:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4 KJV)

Therefore foreknowing them was to "know them ahead of, in front of" everything else. This special knowing put them in a special place in God's Omniscience ahead of, "in front of," "before" everything that exists.

Therefore, because God loves His elect, before they did anything good or bad, before they existed...He predestined them unto salvation and their names can never be blotted out of the book of life.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(Rom 8:28-31 KJV)

So God elected some unconditionally unto salvation, He predestined they can never be lost. A book containing their names was written before creation---the corollary to this being plainly stated:

...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...(Rev 17:8 KJV)

Because God has predestined these unto salvation they can never be lost or blotted out of the book of life.

HOWEVER, it is an INFERENCE God therefore Reprobated to damnation all He didn't elect...that is, REPROBATION is supposed to be the corollary of ELECTION.

That INFERENCE does not follow as the offer of salvation is repeatedly made to everyone who ever lived.

IN other words, the THEORY God Reprobates is hasty generalization fallacy---there are three groups, not just two.

We see that fact proved by the gospel offer of salvation being extended to everyone who wants to be saved:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:15-17 KJV)



God's offer of salvation to "whosoever believes" is not a sham, the possibility of the entire world being saved through His Son is genuine.


DEDUCTION is far superior to INFERENCE, the latter not necessarily following from the premises.

To illustrate, it does not follow from a lifeguard's saving someone drowning, that he thereby downed all the others. Especially the "inference" is wrong if he is seen explaining to the others how they can also be saved.

Therefore we have THREE GROUPS, not just two.

1)Those predestined to be saved;
2)Those who choose to be saved;
3)Those who choose to be lost.



The Jews of Jesus' day called this "in between group" the "middle" or "intermediate" people---they are the "undecided" as it were.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death. Said R. Abin, What text tells us this? — Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ‘Let them be blotted out from the book — this refers to the book of the wicked. ‘Of life — this is the book of the righteous. ‘And not be written with the righteous’ — this is the book of the intermediate. R. Nahman b. Isaac derives it from here: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written,27 ‘Blot me, I pray thee’ — this is the book of the wicked. ‘Out of thy book’ — this is the book of the righteous. ‘Which thou has written’ — this is the book of the intermediate.

It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. The intermediate will go down to ***Gehinnom

and squeal and rise again, as it says, And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name and I will answer them. Of them, too, Hannah said, The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up. Beth Hillel, however, say: He that abounds in grace inclines [the scales] towards grace, and of them David said, I love that the Lord should hear my voice and my supplication, and on their behalf David composed the whole of the passage, I was brought low and he saved me.

Talmud - Mas. Rosh HaShana 17a-b

***Jesus spoke of Hades and Gehenna differently, Gehenna being much worse than Hades indicating He didn't confuse them as the same place...as the above quote seems to do.


These MIDDLING PEOPLE could decide either way and had to be allowed to make their own choice.

God didn't predestine them to salvation because that would subvert their free will. The gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29.)

This proves God certainly knew precisely who they were and allowing them to exercise their free will does not imply He didn't know what their choices were. The offer of salvation for all who repent and believe is real, not fakery.

If they only would have it, God would heal them:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

God didn't lie to Cain:
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 KJV)

This context teaches God didn't Elect anyone who didn't love God, so neither was their free will subverted:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:28-29 KJV)

[This does not contradict unconditional election as it is not said God predestined these because they love Him. ]

That is the major purpose of Hades, to save as many of the "intermediate people" as possible from Gehenna. Punishment for sin brings a certain clarity to the issue, just how serious it is.


So it is their names alone that can be added to or blotted out from the book of life. Not those of the elect, who are predestined to salvation.


Apologetically speaking, this view is far superior to Calvinism or Armianism....not only is it true to all of scripture, it refutes the charge of evil by God.


4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4 KJV)

 

[Alive in Christ]

I certainly agree that Calvin didnt get EVERYTHING wrong.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I certainly agree that Calvin didnt get EVERYTHING wrong.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[pinoybaptist]

God is Omniscient and therefore knew the names of His elect and non-elect before creating anything:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4 KJV)

Therefore foreknowing them was to "know them ahead of, in front of" everything else. This special knowing put them in a special place in God's Omniscience ahead of, "in front of," "before" everything that exists.

Therefore, because God loves His elect, before they did anything good or bad, before they existed...He predestined them unto salvation and their names can never be blotted out of the book of life.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(Rom 8:28-31 KJV)

So God elected some unconditionally unto salvation, He predestined they can never be lost. A book containing their names was written before creation---the corollary to this being plainly stated:

...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...(Rev 17:8 KJV)

Because God has predestined these unto salvation they can never be lost or blotted out of the book of life.

HOWEVER, it is an INFERENCE God therefore Reprobated to damnation all He didn't elect...that is, REPROBATION is supposed to be the corollary of ELECTION.

That INFERENCE does not follow as the offer of salvation is repeatedly made to everyone who ever lived.

IN other words, the THEORY God Reprobates is hasty generalization fallacy---there are three groups, not just two.

We see that fact proved by the gospel offer of salvation being extended to everyone who wants to be saved:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:15-17 KJV)



God's offer of salvation to "whosoever believes" is not a sham, the possibility of the entire world being saved through His Son is genuine.


DEDUCTION is far superior to INFERENCE, the latter not necessarily following from the premises.

To illustrate, it does not follow from a lifeguard's saving someone drowning, that he thereby downed all the others. Especially the "inference" is wrong if he is seen explaining to the others how they can also be saved.

Therefore we have THREE GROUPS, not just two.

1)Those predestined to be saved;
2)Those who choose to be saved;
3)Those who choose to be lost.



The Jews of Jesus' day called this "in between group" the "middle" or "intermediate" people---they are the "undecided" as it were.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death. Said R. Abin, What text tells us this? — Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ‘Let them be blotted out from the book — this refers to the book of the wicked. ‘Of life — this is the book of the righteous. ‘And not be written with the righteous’ — this is the book of the intermediate. R. Nahman b. Isaac derives it from here: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written,27 ‘Blot me, I pray thee’ — this is the book of the wicked. ‘Out of thy book’ — this is the book of the righteous. ‘Which thou has written’ — this is the book of the intermediate.

It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. The intermediate will go down to ***Gehinnom

and squeal and rise again, as it says, And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name and I will answer them. Of them, too, Hannah said, The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up. Beth Hillel, however, say: He that abounds in grace inclines [the scales] towards grace, and of them David said, I love that the Lord should hear my voice and my supplication, and on their behalf David composed the whole of the passage, I was brought low and he saved me.

Talmud - Mas. Rosh HaShana 17a-b

***Jesus spoke of Hades and Gehenna differently, Gehenna being much worse than Hades indicating He didn't confuse them as the same place...as the above quote seems to do.


These MIDDLING PEOPLE could decide either way and had to be allowed to make their own choice.

God didn't predestine them to salvation because that would subvert their free will. The gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29.)

This proves God certainly knew precisely who they were and allowing them to exercise their free will does not imply He didn't know what their choices were. The offer of salvation for all who repent and believe is real, not fakery.

If they only would have it, God would heal them:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

God didn't lie to Cain:
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 KJV)

This context teaches God didn't Elect anyone who didn't love God, so neither was their free will subverted:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:28-29 KJV)

[This does not contradict unconditional election as it is not said God predestined these because they love Him. ]

That is the major purpose of Hades, to save as many of the "intermediate people" as possible from Gehenna. Punishment for sin brings a certain clarity to the issue, just how serious it is.


So it is their names alone that can be added to or blotted out from the book of life. Not those of the elect, who are predestined to salvation.


Apologetically speaking, this view is far superior to Calvinism or Armianism....not only is it true to all of scripture, it refutes the charge of evil by God.


4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4 KJV)

there is something inherently wrong with your logic circuits. some gates will not complement the others.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

there is something inherently wrong with your logic circuits. some gates will not complement the others.

Prove it--talk is very cheap.

On Judgment Day there are three groups standing before God:

1)Those He predestined unto salvation.
2)Those who chose to be saved.
3)Those who chose to be lost.

That there are three and not just two is deducible from God's predestining ONE GROUP the Elect to salvation (Rom 8:29) and from His offering salvation to every on earth (John 3:16ff), ONE Group then believes and is saved and ONE Group who do not believe and are not saved.

=Three groups.


As the context of Psalm 69:28 makes clear, Gill's commentary notwithstanding, these names WERE in the book but because of their sin, are now blotted out::

27 Hold them accountable for all their sins! Do not vindicate them!
28 May their names be deleted from the scroll of the living! Do not let their names be listed with the godly! (Psa 69:27-28 NET)

Therefore there are THREE GROUPS of Names in reference to the book of life:

1)Names that cannot be blotted out written down before the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8)

2)Names that can be blotted out written in after the foundation of the world.

3)Names that were deleted from the book of life.


These three groups are evident in Christ's teaching:

The FIRST GROUP are those called "My brethren" in vs. 40 that reign with Christ as Kings and Priests for a 1,000 years who met Christ in the air during the first resurrection either by being raised from the dead or, if alive at His coming---changed in twinkling of an eye at the last trump and raptured to meet Him in the air to be forever with the LORD when the earth is reaped (1 Th 4:13-17; 1 Cor 15:51f; Rev 20:4-6; 14:16-17 cp Mark 13:24-27). Because these believed and obeyed in this life, they will not come into judgment but have passed over from death into life: (Joh 5:24 ) Hence the judgment of the sheep and the goats does not concern them.


The SECOND GROUP are those judged to be sheep by their works and they are saved.

The THIRD GROUP are those judged to be goats by their works and so are not saved:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Mat 25:31-46 NKJ)



The THREE GROUPS in Rev c. 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4-5 NKJ)


The FIRST RESURRECTION GROUP who met Christ in the air during the first resurrection either by being raised from the dead, OR if alive at His coming---changing in twinkling of an eye at the last trump and raptured to meet Him in the air to be forever with the LORD when the earth is reaped (1 Th 4:13-17; 1 Cor 15:51f; Rev 20:4-6; 14:16-17 cp Mark 13:24-27). Because these believed and obeyed Christ in this life they will not come into the judgment before the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11) because they have passed over from death into life: (Joh 5:24).


The judgment before the great white concerns all the rest of mankind, those who entered the millennial kingdom and were saved, and those who entered and later joined Satan in another world wide rebellion and were lost. Also all the dead are raised up and judged.

anyone not found written in the Book of Life = THE OTHER TWO GROUPS:

The SECOND GROUP written in the book of life group therefore saved.
The THIRD GROUP "not found written in the Book of Life" therefore not saved.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)


So is it deducible there are three groups of mankind on Judgment Day, not only two.

 

[Yeshua1]

neither calvinism/Arminianism as a means to theologically understand the bible are 100% accurate, for neither Calvin nor jacobus were Apostles, but as regarding to actual Sotierology from the Bible, would say calvin got it "more right!"

IF one holds to the concepts of Imputed/origianl Sin from the effects of the fall of Adam, then all sinners saved would be by the model of calvin, not Arminus!

 

[Robert William]

Sovereign election

God is Omniscient and therefore knew the names of His elect and non-elect before creating anything:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4 KJV)

Therefore foreknowing them was to "know them ahead of, in front of" everything else. This special knowing put them in a special place in God's Omniscience ahead of, "in front of," "before" everything that exists.

Therefore, because God loves His elect, before they did anything good or bad, before they existed...He predestined them unto salvation and their names can never be blotted out of the book of life.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(Rom 8:28-31 KJV)

So God elected some unconditionally unto salvation, He predestined they can never be lost. A book containing their names was written before creation---the corollary to this being plainly stated:

...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...(Rev 17:8 KJV)

Because God has predestined these unto salvation they can never be lost or blotted out of the book of life.

HOWEVER, it is an INFERENCE God therefore Reprobated to damnation all He didn't elect...that is, REPROBATION is supposed to be the corollary of ELECTION.

That INFERENCE does not follow as the offer of salvation is repeatedly made to everyone who ever lived.

IN other words, the THEORY God Reprobates is hasty generalization fallacy---there are three groups, not just two.

We see that fact proved by the gospel offer of salvation being extended to everyone who wants to be saved:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:15-17 KJV)



God's offer of salvation to "whosoever believes" is not a sham, the possibility of the entire world being saved through His Son is genuine.


DEDUCTION is far superior to INFERENCE, the latter not necessarily following from the premises.

To illustrate, it does not follow from a lifeguard's saving someone drowning, that he thereby downed all the others. Especially the "inference" is wrong if he is seen explaining to the others how they can also be saved.

Therefore we have THREE GROUPS, not just two.

1)Those predestined to be saved;
2)Those who choose to be saved;
3)Those who choose to be lost.



The Jews of Jesus' day called this "in between group" the "middle" or "intermediate" people---they are the "undecided" as it were.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death. Said R. Abin, What text tells us this? — Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ‘Let them be blotted out from the book — this refers to the book of the wicked. ‘Of life — this is the book of the righteous. ‘And not be written with the righteous’ — this is the book of the intermediate. R. Nahman b. Isaac derives it from here: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written,27 ‘Blot me, I pray thee’ — this is the book of the wicked. ‘Out of thy book’ — this is the book of the righteous. ‘Which thou has written’ — this is the book of the intermediate.

It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. The intermediate will go down to ***Gehinnom

and squeal and rise again, as it says, And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name and I will answer them. Of them, too, Hannah said, The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up. Beth Hillel, however, say: He that abounds in grace inclines [the scales] towards grace, and of them David said, I love that the Lord should hear my voice and my supplication, and on their behalf David composed the whole of the passage, I was brought low and he saved me.

Talmud - Mas. Rosh HaShana 17a-b

***Jesus spoke of Hades and Gehenna differently, Gehenna being much worse than Hades indicating He didn't confuse them as the same place...as the above quote seems to do.


These MIDDLING PEOPLE could decide either way and had to be allowed to make their own choice.

God didn't predestine them to salvation because that would subvert their free will. The gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29.)

This proves God certainly knew precisely who they were and allowing them to exercise their free will does not imply He didn't know what their choices were. The offer of salvation for all who repent and believe is real, not fakery.

If they only would have it, God would heal them:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

God didn't lie to Cain:
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 KJV)

This context teaches God didn't Elect anyone who didn't love God, so neither was their free will subverted:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:28-29 KJV)

[This does not contradict unconditional election as it is not said God predestined these because they love Him. ]

That is the major purpose of Hades, to save as many of the "intermediate people" as possible from Gehenna. Punishment for sin brings a certain clarity to the issue, just how serious it is.


So it is their names alone that can be added to or blotted out from the book of life. Not those of the elect, who are predestined to salvation.


Apologetically speaking, this view is far superior to Calvinism or Armianism....not only is it true to all of scripture, it refutes the charge of evil by God.


4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4 KJV)

Alfred, Amen, God hates some babies and loves others, and that's before they do anything good or bad. YHWH does what He wants and is not to be questioned.

 

[Robert William]

neither calvinism/Arminianism as a means to theologically understand the bible are 100% accurate, for neither Calvin nor jacobus were Apostles, but as regarding to actual Sotierology from the Bible, would say calvin got it "more right!"

IF one holds to the concepts of Imputed/origianl Sin from the effects of the fall of Adam, then all sinners saved would be by the model of calvin, not Arminus!

:thumbsup:

Amen great insight! I think I'm going to like it here. It's hard to understand why so many need to hold on to their free will idol.

 

[Rippon]

Alfred, there are not three groups --only two. Read Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep will be put on the King's right, and the goats will be put to his left.

Verse 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Verse 41 : 'Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Alfred,

My view is that God, even before the creation, knows who will be saved. But this then seems to be developed into the idea that God is arbitrary in His selection and that some will be saved no matter what sins they commit because they have been elected. I found a two-page article that describes the two extremes, and the difficulty posed by some of the arguments that have occupied the minds of many.

He gave the following summary at the end and I would tentatively agree with this summary:.

The Bible position then is this:
(i) It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.

(ii) It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.

(iii) It admits that, if you demand logic, even your reception of grace is of God’s sovereign mercy.

(iv) It sets as an aim before the Christian absolute identity of will with the Father, but relates the experience of the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 7) and even of Christ himself in the garden, to give the sober reminder that for us that aim is not fully attained. There is always with us conflict.

(v) It also sets before us as an ideal, confidence in our final salvation by God’s grace, to which Paul sometimes attained (2 Tim. 4 : 8) so that salvation can be spoken of as already accomplished (Rom. 8: 30). If that confidence eludes us, because of a sense of our unworthiness, we may be encouraged by remembering that “Ifs” abound even in the most confident parts of Paul’s letters, and that the confidence sometimes eluded him. But we should also remember that it is not a question of our being “good enough” (none of us is that) but of the measure of our trust and hope in His mercy.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred,

There has not been a response to my previous Post. I am not sure if the forum members are satisfied with the summary that I supplied, or consider it completely out of line. It is a subject that I have not considered at length, except to say that I have always believed in free will. I can accept that God knows beforehend the choice I will make, but this doe not compel me to make this choice. I was waiting to see what response the summary would receive, but for my own part I was happy with the article and the summary. I decided to Post the whole article below, written in 1946 by a UK writer and speaker.

THE first major protagonists in the predestination controversy, which has raged for centuries, were Augustine and Pelagius. It was Augustine’s point of view that Calvin later adopted, as did also, in their turn, Thomas Aquinas, the Dominicans and the Jansenists in the Catholic Church, Luther with slight modifications, and, among the Methodists, Whitefield. Calvin was opposed by Arminius, whose views correspond more closely with what we believe to be the Bible doctrine than those of the original Pelagius. Others on the Pelagian side were the Jesuits and Wesley.

The Augustinian and Calvinist position stresses man’s utter inability to will or do any good, and insists that God alone can save. He saves by means of grace, which is “effectual” (it does all that is necessary), and “irresistible” (if God chooses to make you the recipient of grace, you have no say in the matter). This irresistibility of grace for the elect entailed predestination: from eternity God had chosen some to receive it and gain life, and had passed over all others. In this God was not unjust, as death was the desert of all. It follows logically that, if Mr. Smith is of the elect, no sin that Mr. Smith commits, however heinous or deliberate, can prevent his gaining eternal life. It was here that Luther diverged from Calvin, maintaining that the grace could be resisted with resulting condemnation. Of course, Calvin would say that, in fact, the elect would not resist it. Calvinism, then, emphasizes basically the absolute, inscrutable and sovereign will of God. Its particular brand of predestination derives from that.

On the other hand, Pelagius emphasized man’s free will, grace coming in as a help, of which man’s striving made him worthy. Arminius insists that repentance and faith are the divinely decreed conditions of life and predestination is merely God’s determination to give eternal life to those whom He foresaw as fulfilling those conditions. (This doubtless is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8; 29–30.) He would, I think, have agreed with this saying of Luther: “—God, foreseeing who will and who will not resist the grace offered, predestinates to life those who are foreseen as believers”.

So much for a brief statement of the rival positions. To attempt in a few minutes even to suggest the Biblical doctrine and where it differs from Calvinism is a rather presumptuous venture. We must at all costs avoid an over-simplification of the problem for our own greater convenience in discussion. We will only try to clarify the issue, and to point a way to the right attitude towards the subject, not even listing the many passages relevant to the various points.

First let us state very briefly what seems to be the two major considerations to be borne in mind:
(1) The Calvinistic doctrine of absolute election, with its implication that many from eternity are passed over and therefore predestined to death, is untenable for Bible believers. We are told unequivocally that God “is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3 : 9). He “will have all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2 : 4). “Whosoever will” is invited to take of the “water of life freely” (Rev. 22: 17). Whatever our final interpretation may be, it must leave room for a God who does not will the death of thousands, but the life of all.
(2) Calvinism insists on pushing its argument to a logical conclusion with results that shock our moral sense and nullify all moral exhortation. The Bible gives the data and does not offer a logical solution. Where it comes nearest to doing so, in Romans 8 and 9, it comes near to Calvinism. Its general teaching, as also the particular teaching of Romans finally, is just the presentation of the data, without a neatly parcelled and pigeon-holed explanation of what the divine wisdom knows is basically an unsolvable problem for finite minds.

The data are chiefly three:
1. GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE. This is limitless. Limit it, and your definition of God needs alteration.
2. GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE. Its exercise might be restrained, but only by God’s will, by His “longsuffering”.
3. MAN’S FREE WILL. It is not question-begging to include this as a datum. To deny free will is to play fast and loose with our own daily experience; to put the blame for Adam’s fall not on serpent, Eve or Adam, but on God Himself; to make Moses a play actor when he appeals to Israel to choose life rather than death; to tear page after page from the prophets as so much beating of the air; to tell the Lord Jesus Christ he was wasting his time in his appeals to come unto him; to erase from Apostolic writings everything that suggests the need for moral exhortations or offers it; and finally—though the sentence could be almost indefinitely prolonged—to cancel out entirely the first condition of life and all the clarion calls to it from Matthew to Revelation, namely, repentance.

Of these three data, in strict logic, (1) and (2) make (3) a mere human illusion. If God has absolute power fully exercised, then what He foresees He also causes or allows, and my freedom in things small or great is only a fancy of mine, and God’s punishment of sin becomes a mockery of justice by merely human standards. It is the objection of strict logic that is anticipated in Rom. 9: 19. Note that Paul’s answer does not deny the logic. All he says is: “You must accept it”. But here he comes nearest to the Calvinist position, emphasizing God’s sovereign will (Rom. 9 : 14–24).

There is one other thing we can do with our data. We can say that God has limited His omnipotence to the extent of allowing man free will; in other words that datum 3 is only possible on the assumption of datum 2 having been limited. This leaves us with a slightly easier problem, still finally unsolvable by our finite minds, yet more easily imaginable. It is just possible to imagine that God may from eternity have foreseen all the free choices of free human wills without in any way interfering with their freedom. This will not do in logic, of course: a foreseen free choice must be made, therefore its freedom is illusory. But the whole plan of redemption, with the ideas of law, probation, sin, repentance, prophetic warning and appeal, God’s repenting of evil proposed, His longsuffering, the whole history of man’s declension and rebellion and the prospect of God’s final vindication, do necessitate something, which, for want of better terms, we may call a voluntary, temporary restraint of God’s power.

Here then is our choice: either deny free will and be logical (but also foolish, inasmuch as our choosing to deny free will cannot be free either—we just couldn’t help it) or accept both God’s foreknowledge and our own free will without demanding their logical reconciliation, but retaining for our help towards right choices the whole of God’s Word. This latter is the Bible’s own position. the passages where most emphasis is laid upon God’s sovereign will are followed in the same letter by hosts of passages which demand our belief in free will (Rom. 10: 12, 17; 11 : 14 , 18–19, 22, 25; 12 :1–3, etc.).

The Bible position then is this: (refer previous Post).

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again Alfred,

There has not been a response to my previous Post. I am not sure if the forum members are satisfied with the summary that I supplied, or consider it completely out of line. It is a subject that I have not considered at length, except to say that I have always believed in free will. I can accept that God knows beforehend the choice I will make, but this doe not compel me to make this choice. I was waiting to see what response the summary would receive, but for my own part I was happy with the article and the summary. I decided to Post the whole article below, written in 1946 by a UK writer and speaker.
Kind regards
Trevor

Either man still has a true free Will reamining to him after the fall, or does not...

I see the biblical answer as being 'does not"