Bible not perfect

Only if that is your only "proof text" about the sign gifts.

 

Can the bible know us? NO!

 

(I tried to edit the previous post because I hit "Add Reply" instead of "Full Reply" after pasting in that statement from Tam, but it didn't work.)

Tam said:

I am not saying that "perfect" in that passage necessarily means the Bible, but I also don't think that the passage proves the sign gifts are for today. It is a poetic passage and I do not think it clearly shows the sign gifts will continue until Christ comes. The early church was expecting Christ any day, and this passage shows the perfection of Christ vs. what we can know and speak imperfectly in relation to that.

Well, that's my view on Saturdays and Tuesdays, and some Thursdays, anyway.

 

The 'perfect' will come when we are all in heaven...

 

My Bible is perfect. It is the perfect law of liberty(James 1:25). It is Jesus speaking to me, telling me who I am and how I'm supposed to be. The Bible does speak the same thing to those who choose to listen.

When it wasn't finished, the early churchfolk didn't know how to act; they were helpless, like babies. Then it got completed & they had all they needed to know...but many, like today, choose to do their own thing.

When I get to Heaven, I will have no further need for faith or hope, but there will always be charity.

 

I think it's pretty clear that what Paul refers to is heaven. The gifts of which he spoke were a means of worship - in heaven we won't be limited to our human "rituals" or practices to worship God.

 

Jus' logged on to this site for a few minutes for somethin' to do, and will offer my view on this thread, FWIW.

The 'perfect' in this passage is not the Bible, or the 'perfect law of liberty' of James. That is a forced interpretation that is rather presumptive—and is used most often to eliminate the possibility of God continuing to work in the Church through the charismata.

The 'perfect' in the context of the letter is the resurrection state in chapter 15. God remains well able and willing to yet manifest His power in His Church by His Spirit.

 

The issue is not whether the Bible is perfect. The issue is whether or not the Bible is what I Corinthians 13 is talking about. If you believe that Bible is perfect, that doesn't mean you have to believe that it is what I Corinthians 14:23 is takling about.

The coming of the perfection Paul speaks of here is something that will make Paul's then-current life on earth seem like childhood.


10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

How many of you, owning, or even reading a copy of the Bible, live lives that make Paul's life on earth seem like childhood?

Something else to notice is that Paul relates the coming of the perfect to himself personally. It is something he will experience. It will make his own, then-current life seem like childhood.

I believe the perfect Paul speaks of is something he talks about later in the book--the state of the believer in the resurrection. Here in chapter 13, Paul brings up issues he will expand on later in the book. Paul has an idea of what he is goig to say in the rest of this letter, and this is foreshadowing of what he wants to say.

Notice the order in which Paul mentions things in chapter 13, compared to how he expands on these topics in chapters 14 and 15.

ch 13 tongues and prophecy--> ch. 14 expands on tongues and prophecy.

ch 13 that which is perfect --> ch 15, the state of the believer in the resurrection.


In the resurrection, when Paul looks back on his life before the resurection, he will consider it to be like childhood in comparison to the resurrected state.

Paul cannot be talkingabout the completed canon because:

1. He wouldn't be alive to see the canon completed.
2. Other people who use the scriptures aren't so much more mature than Paul that they make his life on earth seem as immature as childhood. Paul was probably more spiritually mature than most believers now who read their Bible every day.

 

The perfect of I Corinthians 13 is the completed written revelation of God. The gifts mentioned were for the expressed purpose of completing man spiritually. This is stated in the text as the imperfect gifts were to cease.( 8-10). Paul uses the example of a child to represent the immature spiritual man in this writing to the Corinthians. The church at Corinth had many problems. One of these problems was the abuse of the divine power they had. This letter was written to identify and correct the problem of the abuse of power and to explain that these gifts were only temporary. In other words, do not get the big head over these temporary gifts because they will eventually be unavailable. Therefore, learn to use love, which is a lasting gift in relating to others.

The case for the completed written revelation of God being in view is buttressed by the harmony of other texts on this matter. In Ephesians 4:11-16, the Bible says, 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The implication of this text as well as I Cor. 13 is the body of Christ would be complete spiritually as per the following:
1. Perfecting of the saints. (vs. 12).
2. Perfect man, stature of the fullness of Christ. (vs. 13).
3. Prevent a falling away because of false doctrine by deceit and cunning craftiness of false teachers i.e. spiritual discernment. (vs. 14).
4. Prosper in All things. (vs. 15).
5. Perfect harmony. (vs. 16).

If one accepts the perfect in I Corinthians 13 to be heaven, he affirms , according to the texts, that deceit, false teachings, and imperfect faith will be in heaven.
Furthermore, Christ cannot be in view as this was to take place during the lifetime of the audience( the Corinthians). Moreover, Christ promised men would be guided into all the truth. ( John 16:13). The truth was to save, cleanse and guide one to perfection. The Bible says in James 1:18, the Bible says, of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures. The Bible says in I Pet. 1:22, seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Our salvation in heaven is kept by faith in the truth, the Bible says, in I Pet. 1:4,5, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In summation, the same Paul that wrote I Cor. 13 also wrote II Tim. 3:16,17. The Bible says, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be PERFECT, throughly furnished unto ALL good works.
If the miraculous gifts of I Corinthians were still available we would see the evidence of such gifts. However, we do not see the lame walking, the blind receiving sight, the dead rising, men speaking in languages (tongues). (Acts 2:4,6).

 

When we say the Bible is perfect, we're not referring to the dead scribblings of text. We're referring the the living message contained in the text. That is, the Gospel, the Good News.

If we sat down with the bible texts and tried to prove it to be without imperfection, we'd be barking up the wrong tree. The Bible is not my refuge. Jesus is my refuge. I don't worship the Bible, I worship the Lord. I don't cast my cares upon the Bible, I cast them upon God. It is not the Bible which speaks to me, but the Holy Spirit which speaks to me.

 

Frank wrote,
***The perfect of I Corinthians 13 is the completed written revelation of God. The gifts mentioned were for

the expressed purpose of completing man spiritually. This is stated in the text as the imperfect gifts were to

cease.( 8-10). Paul uses the example of a child to represent the immature spiritual man in this writing to the

Corinthians. ***

When you say 'the immature spiritual man' do you mean the body of Christ as a whole (whether in the heavenly

sense or the local sense?) Or do you mean and individual?

In either case, really think about what you are saying. Paul wrote to Timothy about the scriptures helping

him be completely equipped. But the context refers to the scriptures he read as a child- the Old Testament

scriptures. revelation hadn't been written yet. In spite of this, Timothy could be fully equipped without a

completed canon. So using this to argue that I Corinthians 13 says that the completed canon will make one

spiritually complete doesn't make sense. Timothy could be comlpete wthout the completed canon.

Also, what you are sayign doesn't make sense historically or practically. Paul was very spiritually mature-

much more mature than many Christians who have the completed canon. having the scriptures does not make a man

mature, necessarily.

Ephesians 4 speaks of a 'perfect man'- referring to the body, not an individual. Did the church as a whole

become perfect, no longer driven around by waves of doctrine after the Bible was completed? Historically we

know that this isn't true. Revelation tells about false teachers teaching certain doctrines. These kinds of

doctrines continued to be a problem for decades and decades. By the time the church got a handle on them,

infant baptism and other teachings and practices that a lot of Baptists on this forum would oppose were

prevalent. The Bible even warns against the doctrines of devils that men would want to listen to in the last

days, and warns that the love of many would wax cold. If we look at reality, we can see that the whole body

did not mature to extent Ephesians 4 describes it when the book of Revelation was completed. Is splitting

into denominations perfect unity? I don't see the situation described in Ephesians 4, regarding the

perfection and unity of the church, as having occurred yet. I could see a Roman Catholic taking the line of

reasoning you are taking, since a lot of what we consider doctrinal error, they accept- but I don't undertand

why a Baptist would take this line of reasoning.

*****If one accepts the perfect in I Corinthians 13 to be heaven, he affirms , according to the texts, that

deceit, false teachings, and imperfect faith will be in heaven. ****

That doesn't make sense at all. Could you explain how you get that idea from the text? Paul is talking about

the way _he_ will be to make a point that applies to all the Corinthians.

Besides, I don't see why one would read 'heaven' into the text. I Corinthians doesn't tell the saints to look

forward to going to heaven when they die. Rather, he encourages us to believe in the hope of the resurrection

of the dead.

We shouldn't just plug in any old thing into I Corinthians 13 and name that thing 'the perfect' just because

we want to and it agrees with our doctrine. We need to understand what Paul is talking about BASED ON THIE

TEXT. If you read your own ideas in, that is eisegesis, not exigeses. There is nothing in the book of I

Corinthians to indicate that Paul has the completed New Testament scriptures in mind when we speaks of

'perfection' in I Corinthians 13. There is a reason FROM WITHIN THE TEXT ITSELF to think that Paul is talking

about the resurrection. Paul elaborates on the issue he brings up in I Corinthians 13 later in his epistle-

in chapter 15, when he talksa bout the state of the believer in the resurrection. This perfectly fits the

description in I Corinthians 13.

What he says in I Corinthians 13 describes what will be his own experience. His then-present life will be as

childhood. Clearly, Paul would not see his then-current state as childhood when the scriptures were

completed, because he would be in the grave. But when he is resurrected, it makes sense that he will see his

early life as childish compared to his resurrected state. This situation also applies to every believer in

the resurrection of the just.


The resurrected believer will be so far advanced beyond the way he was in his earthly life that his earthly

life will seem like childhood.

Consider these words from I Corinthians 15:
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a

spiritual body.

***Furthermore, Christ cannot be in view as this was to take place during the lifetime of the audience( the

Corinthians).***

Think about what you are saying here. When Christ returns, the dead will be raised, so they will experience

what happens at his return. The Corinthians won't be dead when they are resurrected, and neither will Paul.

Paul was dead, according to what history we have, when the book of Revelation was completed. So we wasnt'

around in his pre-resurrected earthly form to consider himself to have acheived spiritual adulthood just by

having a copy of the Bible.

Btw, I know a lot of unbelievers have Bibles on their shelves. A lot of people who profess Christianity but

do drugs or commit adultery do to. Do you think the one who claims to be a Christian who meets someone else's

wife in a hotel room once a week, but has a copy of the New Testament, or even reads it, is more mature than

the apostle Paul was in the first century?

**If the miraculous gifts of I Corinthians were still available we would see the evidence of such gifts.

However, we do not see the lame walking, the blind receiving sight, the dead rising, men speaking in languages

(tongues). (Acts 2:4,6). **

Can you imagine what those who have seen evidence of such gifts think when we read your message? These things

do occur on occasion. You might even be able to find a _ Baptist _ missionary or two who has seen some of

them.

The fact that you haven't seen evidence of such things doesn't prove they don't happen. Jesus could not do

many miracles in His own hometown because of their unbelief. If you don't just take God at His word on this

issue enough to believe that He grants such gifts, can you really expect to see them?

 

Link:
The ability to remain steadfast and faithful requires a steadfast, static standard. The written revelation of God had not been completed. It was the complete written revelation of God that insures this is the case for all. This insures one does not have to totally rely on his memory to know the truth.

Since individuals make up the body, it was essential that all members of the body in all locations have a permanent static standard of truth by which to be complete, and not tossed about by every wind of doctrine.(I Cor. 12:13,14, Acts 2:47, I Thes 5:27)). Therefore, God had things written down for us. ( Rev. 1:11, II Thes. 2:15, I Cor. 14:37).

Moreover, division is a product of men who are deceived by their acceptance of untruth, not by a failure of God to communicate his will.(II Thes. 2:11).

There is no biblical evidence of miracles being performed today.(Mark 16:17-20, Acts 20:11-13, John 11). There is no credible evidence to believe the dead are raised, the blind are made to see and the lame walk.

II Tim. 3:16,17 includes all scripture, not just the old testament. This is exactly what the text says. I Cor. 13 does not imply that all are spiritually immature without the written revelation, only that it was necessary for a permanent record be written to ensure the abiltiy of future generations to be steadfast and faithful to the laws and commands of God. In essence, mankind for all times could not be spiritually mature without a permanent record. This truth was by the design and plan of God. The text of I Corinthians teaches this. Please note that tongues were to cease, prophecies would fail, and all these things would be end when the perfect came. ( I Cor. 13:8-10).

I say this with all kindness to those who believe in the miraculous endowments of the spirit, if they have what the apostles have, they should do what they did. They can meet the biblical proof of these gifts by raising one dead person from the grave.If they do this, I will be the first to affirm these gifts are for today.

 

static=unchanging