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Bible Scholars please help!!!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Alliswell, Jan 9, 2003.

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  1. Alliswell

    Alliswell New Member

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    [​IMG] :confused: :confused:

    On the other thread there was discussion about the different translations.

    Our Sunday School class uses the Bible Study Series Quarterlies and both NIV and KJV are printed.

    There is not often a great deal of difference in the meaning.

    Here is one that has me puzzled.

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Revelation+5%3A9-10&NIV_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=10&y=8

    I looked it up in Strong's and the first person pronoun is indicated.

    http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/

    I know, though, that Strong's is a concordance for KJV only, so :confused: :confused: !

    [ January 09, 2003, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]
     
    #1 Alliswell, Jan 9, 2003
  2. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    According to my NKJV the majority text and critical text have the pronoun as 'them', not 'us'. This is a textual variant that is peculiar to the Textus Receptus. I personally do not feel that it is a big problem.

    Neal
     
    #2 neal4christ, Jan 9, 2003
  3. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    The only real difference is that the KJV makes it more personal.
     
    #3 Don, Jan 9, 2003
  4. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    If I recall correctly, there is no variation in verse 9, the Greek reads "...and hast redeemed to God...", not specifying "us" or "them". The textual variation is all in verse 10, and perhaps more detail would be better discussed on the Translation forum.

    Manscript evidence aside, an probably more in keeping with keeping the discussion in this forum, I personally think the "them" reading is likely more accurate because I don't believe the 24 elders are humans, based on other passages in Revelation that talk about them.
     
    #4 BrianT, Jan 9, 2003
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    From a theological perspective, if the correct translation is "us", then an argument could be made that the 24 elders represent the church.

    If it is "them", it presents all kinds of problems for that view. Personally, I believe the 24 elders are angels. That seems to be the best view. I used to hold to the "church" view, but it is really unconvincing to me.

    "Who are you?" - Lois
    "A friend." - Superman

    (message because editted proper grammar and word order know don't I)

    [ January 09, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Kal-El ]
     
    #5 Daniel David, Jan 9, 2003
  6. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    I'm a little rusty on reading my textual apparatus, but I think it's safe to say that both the majority text and the eclectic text do have "them."

    "Us" is found in a couple Old Latin versions, a Coptic version, and one Vulgate manuscript. It also appears in four Latin church fathers. If I'm reading this correctly, "us" is not in any extant Greek manuscript.

    Erasmus' Greek Revelation manuscripts were notoriously poor. It's possible he may have relied on one of these versions for his text at this point. Someone else may know better than I.
     
    #6 Siegfried, Jan 9, 2003
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Them -- NA27, Robison Pierpont Majority Text, UBS3/4, Tischendorf

    Us -- Stephanus, Scrivener.

    The TR has "us," the Majority Text and the Eclectic texts have "them."

    Interestingly enough, I just noticed that according to the verse count, the TR has omitted a verse from the Robinson Pierpont Majority Text. How corrupt of those TR people ... :D
     
    #7 Pastor Larry, Jan 9, 2003
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    So Larry, what is your take on the 24 elders and the interpretation of their identity based on the manuscript issue?
     
    #8 Daniel David, Jan 9, 2003
  9. Alliswell

    Alliswell New Member

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I am not a scholar, but a student. I do not read Greek or Hebrew and must rely on those who do to answer questions.

    The method that I use to understand any passage is to find other Scriptures that might throw light on a particular puzzler.

    Here is how I arrived at the :confused: :confused: in the passage above.

    I came to Revelation 4 and see these 24 persons.

    I have just read in verse 21 of chapter 3 "To him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on My throne, just as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.

    These people are wearing crowns and I remember, "Be thou faithful to death and I will give thee a crown of life.

    They are wearing white raiment, which Jesus has also promised that overcomers will do.

    They are rewarded, and resting.

    The throne of God is there and in Chapter 5 we see the Lamb of God is there.

    Then when these creatures worship the Lamb is when they cast THEIR crowns before Him and go in to this paean of worship, and, to me, the first person makes more sense. It seemes to me that they are praising Him because He has redeemed THEM

    I do know that He died for the sins of all men everywhere. This is the first passage in the two translations that got me upset because of the mental gymnastics I had already gone through in the 4th chapter, just marveling at the heavenly scene and identifying with their praise!

    Just wondering! Shalom

    Alliswell [​IMG]

    [ January 09, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]
     
    #9 Alliswell, Jan 9, 2003
  10. Alliswell

    Alliswell New Member

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    :eek:

    Well, my name is not Larry and I just gave my opinion.

    Larry, and all, I would be interested to year your take on the 24.

    God bless! [​IMG]

    Alliswell

    [ January 11, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]
     
    #10 Alliswell, Jan 11, 2003
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