Bible Topics -- easy vs hard

[BobRyan]

Our Pastor's sermon this week talked about the need to read the easy parts of the Bible as much as possible and to add in the more difficult sections as we grow in grace, faith and knowledge of the Word.

But even then - we should be mixing in the easy topics and studying them in more depth as we also study the more difficult texts like Dan 11 and Revelation 8, 9 and 10.

My wife then asked me if my experience on this board was in the area of easy topics or the more challenging in-depth and often confusing topics such as those in Dan 11 and Rev 8,9, and 10.

I had to admit - we stick mostly with easy things like debating the following.

#1. When God SAYs 1000 years in Rev 20 does He really mean it or can we possibly confuse and obfuscate that in some way.

#2. When God SAYS in John 3 "God so loved the World" is that really true just like it says - or can we "downsize" it in some way?

#3. When God SAYS that the saints are raised in the FIRST resurrection - in Rev 20:4-5 does He really mean it -- or can we obfuscate that by inserting resurrections BEFORE the "First" resurrection or denying that the 1000 years are really 1000 years?

#4. When God SAYS He made the world in 6 days and rested the 7th in Gen 1-2:3 and in Exodus 20:8-11 should we actually believe Him or can we rewrite, edite obfuscate and misdirect the text away from it's obvious meaning in some way?

#5. When God SAYS that man "is mortal" and that by removing access to the tree of life - He has ensured that mortal man will simply return to dust and the spirit of all mankind going to God who gave it at death - is He really correct or can we suppose an "immortal soul" even though there is no "immortal soul" text in the Bible?

#6. When God SAYS that the saints read the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things told to them by the Apostle Paul "were so" does this sola scriptural model present a GOOD thing or something to be rejected?

#7. When God SAYS that the Son "IS GOD" in John 1:1 is that really true or not?

#8. When God SAYS rats cats and bats are not actually intended to be food for humans - should we believe him or not?

#9. When Christ SAID "pre-cross" IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments - did Christ mean IT? Did He mean to HONOR or destroy His Own Ten Commandments pre-Cross? Post Cross?

In other words - in even the most simple cases - we see that "Everything is doubted" and "everything is challenged" long before we get to the really hard stuff like Dan 11 and Rev 8, 9, 10. Those texts in Dan and Rev are really confusing for me - and it is very easy just to "make stuff up" when you get there.

But to be honest - we seem to be stuck finding all the ways there are to "PROVE" that even the most simple, and obvious parts of the Bible "SHOULD REALLY" be believed -- and then having that challenged week after week.

Is it because there is so little reading of the Bible that this is the case - or is it that Satan is just "that successful" in misleading people even inside the church?

IF all this debate over the really simple stuff is a sign of satan's success inside the church - then what about those silly false messiah's like the one in Fla? Doesn't this mean they are going to have a field day with a LOT of Christians?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jim1999]

To be honest, Bob, for 25 years as I taught at the local university, I wrestled with every conceivable biblical and theological question. I enjoyed those years, and the youngsters who attended in training for ministry.

Now in my 80th year, I am not so interested in debate as much as I am with fellowship in the word. This is what I miss on a lot of the forums and I lose more and more interest in the forums.

You may understand this in a few years.

I can read both Greek and Hebrew as well as Latin, French, and of course, proper English, but I get upset when I see some demonstrating, on these type forums, how much they know about Greek and Hebrew, when the majority haven't a clue what Greek and Hebrew are. Do you follow what I am thinking?

At any rate, I will leave the debates for the youngsters. In the final analyses, it is, "What think ye of Christ, and whose Son is He...?" that concerns me the most.

Cheers, and God bless,

Jim

 

[LeBuick]

You left our dressing modestly, men's haircuts and abortion but you about summed it up.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //#3. When God SAYS that the saints are raised
in the FIRST resurrection - in Rev 20:4-5 does He really
mean it -- or can we obfuscate that by inserting resurrections
BEFORE the "First" resurrection or denying that the 1000 years
are really 1000 years?//

I believe it means what it says. I believe that there are lots
of people who don't know the FIRST thing about the word
'first'.

I went to college, but first I went to High School (grades 9-12).
I went to High School but first I went to Junior High
(grades 7 & 8). I went to Junior High but first I went to
Grammer School (grades 1-6).

----------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------------------------

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

These two are one and being the First Resurrection.

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

These three are one and being the second resurrection, where Jesus said the hour is coming when all that are in the grave shall come forth, both the good and the bad.

There is only two resurrections and Jesus being the first along with the bodies of many of the saints that slept.

 

[Ed Edwards]

#3 about FIRST & eschatology

Rev 20:4 -5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them
that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5. But the rest of the dead liued not againe
vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

Consider the meaning of the '&', standing for 'and' in English,
for 'kai' in Greek.

Here are some possible meanings of 'and' in English:

1. connect two equal sets (two sets with different names
but with the same exact members)
2. connect two similiar sets (two sets with different names
and with similiar members /not exactly the same/)
3. connect two different sets (two sets with different names
and totally different members)
4. the Polysendten 'and' - used in Greek for outlines (one level)

I believe the '&' (and, kai) here connects two different sets:

1. And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:

2. I saw the soules of them
that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands;

I believe group one came out of the Great Tribulation Period by being
raptured/resurrected before the Tribulation Period.
This group contains in excess of 200 Million people.
I believe group two are those who lived during the Tribulation
Period and died for confessing Jesus as Lord & Messiah.
This group may only contain a few hundred thousand souls.

This whole variation of Eschatology hinges only on the meaning
of AND, which in the KJV1611 Edition is
only the ampersand '&'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry Brother Bob, but I've given many details about
each resurrection. You just can't debate away these
details with "hese three are one and being the second resurrection,"
(BTW, 'second resurrection' is NOT a scriptural name
but is only implied from something different than
'first resurrection'.

This scripture teaches one and only one resurrection
for both the just and the unjust.

Dan 12:1-3 And at that time shall Michael stand vp,
the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people,
and there shalbe a time of trouble, such as neuer was
since there was a nation, euen to that same time:
and at that time thy people shalbe deliuered,
euery one that shalbe found written in the booke.
2 And many of them that sleepe in the dust of the earth
shall awake, some to euerlasting life,
and some to shame and euerlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightnesse
of the firmament, and they that turne
many to righteousnesse, as the starres for euer and euer.

The Revelation, Chapter 20 clearly delineates
two (and only two) types of resurrection:

1. resurrection of the just
2. resurrection of the unjust

 

[Tom Bryant]

To be honest, Bob, for 25 years as I taught at the local university, I wrestled with every conceivable biblical and theological question. I enjoyed those years, and the youngsters who attended in training for ministry.
Now in my 80th year, I am not so interested in debate as much as I am with fellowship in the word. This is what I miss on a lot of the forums and I lose more and more interest in the forums.
You may understand this in a few years.
...
At any rate, I will leave the debates for the youngsters. In the final analyses, it is, "What think ye of Christ, and whose Son is He...?" that concerns me the most.

:thumbs:

10 years I would have argued with you demanding that debate is part of being able to give an answer for the hope that is within us. But like you, as I've grown older and grown up, debating about some of these issues just leaves me cold. I know what I believe and I'm not going to change. :BangHead:

But as I grow up, I also know there is more that I don't know. :tear:

 

[Jim1999]

Tom, in 1945, when I first went out to preach, I had all the answers. My first day in the field, I found more questions. Life is like that.

Glad you found out early on that there is more to living than debate. Now every reading of the word has new meaning, and old truth are like gold.

Cheers, mate, enjoy life in Him,

Jim

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //#7. When God SAYS that the Son "IS GOD"
in John 1:1 is that really true or not?//

It really is true.

 

[Brother Bob]

(BTW, 'second resurrection' is NOT a scriptural name
but is only implied from something different than
'first resurrection'.

Well, first of all lets see if we can take the scriptures and get a "second resurrection", after you listed five and then told me the scripture does now speak of a second, of which it does not same as it does not speak of a 2, a 3, a 4, or a 5.

Revelation, chapter 20
6": Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power[/B]

Now if there was a First Resurrection and blessed is he that hath a part in it, the second death hath no power.
If a man come to the second death he must of already had one and if he is now at the second death he must of been resurrected again being this is the second death and if there is a second death the common sense teaches us that there must of been another resurrection rather than the first.

Rev. 20:
"12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

"13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

"14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


I just quoted what Jesus spoke of Ed that the hour is coming when ALL that are in the grave shall come forth and unto them that have done good the resurrection of life, and unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation.

I can't find where Jesus ever spoke of anything but a resurrection of the good and the bad where He will put the sheep on the right and the goats on the left.

 

[EdSutton]

BobRyan: //#7. When God SAYS that the Son "IS GOD"
in John 1:1 is that really true or not?//

It really is true.

While I certainly believe it is to be true that the Son "IS GOD", that is NOT to be found in John 1:1. And as a matter of fact, neither the word "Son", nor the word "IS" are not to be found in the verse, at all, at least in the KJV and NKJV.
"Was" and "Word" is another matter. Or have I already crossed into stuff that is "too hard"?
Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Where is Clinton when you need him. Depends on what is is.

 

[Chemnitz]

Where is Clinton when you need him. Depends on what is is.

What's even funnier are all the people who lampoon Clinton for his twisting of the word 'is' and then do the same thing to defend the symbolic interpretation of the Words of Institution. :laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bible Topic #3 about FIRST & eschatology

Brother Bob: // ... the common sense teaches us ... //

What I hear is:
'Brother Bob can have & use common sense to figure out
the Bible; Brother Ed cannot have & use common sense
to figure out the Bible'. Unfortunately most will see the
use of a DOUBLE STANDARD.

It does seem to me like if one resurrection happens to
different people (who) at differene times (when) for
different reasons (why) and have differenet methods (how)
then the resurrections are different resurrections.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Topic #3: First & Eschatology

Brother Bob: //I can't find where Jesus ever spoke of anything
but a resurrection of the good and the bad
where He will put the sheep on the right and the goats on the left//

I find where Jesus spake of seperating the
sheep nations from the goat nations. But I didn't find
anything about a resurrection.

Mat 25:31-46 (KJV1611 Edition):

When the Sonne of man shall come in his glory,
and all the holy Angels with him, then shall hee sit
vpon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations,
and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepheard diuideth his sheepe from the goats.
33 And he shall set the sheepe on his right hand,
but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say vnto them on his right hand,
Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdome
prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was an hungred, and yee gaue me meate:
I was thirstie, and ye gaue me drinke:
I was a stranger, and ye tooke me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sicke,
and yee visited me: I was in prison, and ye came vnto me.
37 Then shal the righteous answere him,
saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred,
and fedde thee? or thirstie, and gaue thee drinke?
38 When saw wee thee a stranger,
and tooke thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sicke, or in prison,
and came vnto thee?
40 And the King shall answere, and say vnto
them, Uerely I say vnto you, in as much
s ye haue done it vnto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye haue done it vnto me.
41 Then shall he say also vnto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into euerlasting fire,
prepared for the deuill and his angels.
42 For I was an hungred, and yee gaue me no meat:
I was thirstie, and ye gaue me no drinke:
43 I was a stranger, and yee tooke me not in:
naked, and ye clothed mee not: sicke,
and in prison, and yee visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answere him, saying, Lord,
when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst,
or a stranger, or naked, or sicke, or in prison,
and did not minister vnto thee?
45 Then shall he answere them, saying,
Uerely, I say vnto you, in as much as
ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall goe away into euerlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternall.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well Brother Ed;
It matters not whether Brother Ed is right
or Brother Bob is right
for in both Brother Ed's and Brother Bob's beliefs;
Brother Ed and Brother Bob will be gone before the wrath. Amen,

And Brother Bob will allow Brother Ed to use common sense to understand
the Bible for Brother Bob believes most of what Brother Ed posted but maybe
at different times.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Bob: //It matters not whether Brother Ed is right
or Brother Bob is right
for in both Brother Ed's and Brother Bob's beliefs;
Brother Ed and Brother Bob will be gone before the wrath. Amen,//



Amen, Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:


BTW, you win that point -- U.B. doing great! :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

#8. When God SAYS rats cats and bats are not actually intended to be food for humans - should we believe him or not?

We should believe Him and not eat rats, cats nor bats :tear:

 

[Tom Bryant]

We should believe Him and not eat rats, cats nor bats :tear:

personally, even if He said we could, I wouldn't :tongue3: