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Biblical Chastening

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007.

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  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Some folks round these parts think that chastening is somehow different from punishment, that chastening is only for correction and never punitive or retributive. This reasoning allows for chastening in this life only, because once your dead God has to give you a crown and you don't have time to learn any lessons before you step up and take the throne I suppose. But does the bible bear out this line of reasoning, that God only chastens in this life in order to correct us in this life?

    Leviticus 26:14-33
    14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
    15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
    16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
    17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
    18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
    19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
    20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
    21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
    22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
    23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
    24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
    25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
    26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
    27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
    28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
    29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
    30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
    31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savor of your sweet odors.
    32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
    33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

    Chastening is synonymous with punishment. Notice that this chastisement in Deuteronomy ends in destruction, not an object lesson. Some folks will ignore any scripture from the old testament since they are not Jewish. But God says these things are an example for us.

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21
    18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

    What do you suppose God would do to one of His children who, when chastened, will not hearken unto Him?

    Deuteronomy 8:5-6
    5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
    6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
     
    #1 James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You have defeated your own argument with this Scripture, the very Scripture which the author of the Book Hebrews uses for an illlustration of God's chastening upon His children.

    He differentiates between chastening (discipline) and the ultimate punishment that results if the chastening fails. If the parental chastening fails in correcting the child then the child is taken out and stoned. The parallel to this in the NT is that God's mercy will only go so far on this earth with his children. The last stage of of the rod of his discipline is death, as it was with Annanias and Sapphira, or with the Corinthian believers in 1Cor.11:30. This we may call a "sin unto death." But only God can determine what that sin is. Man has no right to determine what it is. It is in God's program of chastening, and man has no claim to determine what God's omniscient plan in chastening his child is. That is the most arrogant of assumptions. All chastening by God happens on this earth. There is no indication to the contrary.
     
    #2 DHK, Aug 9, 2007
  3. Cutter

    Cutter New Member

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    Excellent post, DHK! :thumbs:
     
    #3 Cutter, Aug 9, 2007
  4. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Yes, excellent post, DHK.
     
    #4 npetreley, Aug 9, 2007
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I incorrectly referred to these verses in Leviticus as verses in Deuteronomy.
    28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
    29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
    30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

    What you call the 'ultimate punishment' is just chastisement. Whether or not you want to argue that chastisement can only occur in this life is not (yet) the point. The point is that death can be chastisement, and unless there is a lesson to be learned from dying, then you cannot say that chastening is only to correct believers. Chastisement is also punishment for sin.
     
    #5 James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Before I even answer that question, let me ask some of my own.

    1. Did you look up the word being translated "chastise" in the Hebrew in both places? Is it the same word?
    2. If so, does it have more than one meaning?
    3. Or, are you like the cults who have a key-hole method of hermeneutics--that is stick to one meaning of the word and "key" it into every context where the word is used whether or not it fits the context?
    4. Do you realize that almost every word in our English language, (as well as most other languages, have more than one meaning--a good example is "wine"?
     
    #6 DHK, Aug 9, 2007
  7. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    No, feel free to do so. I am KJVO and I don't usually bother reinventing the wheel.
    Most likely.
    I just prefer to let the bible tell me what God means when he says chastise, instead of man. Whether or not context really changes the definition of chastise remains to be seen.
    So do you acknowledge that the new wine found in a cluster of grapes is wine according to the bible? Wait, thats a different thread.
     
    #7 James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007
  8. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    These questions need to be honestly examined by both sides. One thing is for sure. We can't just yield to unproven preconceptions, and allow our opinions to influence our answers.

    Lacy
     
    #8 Lacy Evans, Aug 9, 2007
  9. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Just for giggles, I did look at the hebrew, and it is the same word translated as chastise, and also translated punish.
     
    #9 James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007
  10. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    The word 'chastise' in the Old Testament...

    Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
    3256. yacar
    [SIZE=-1]Search for H3256 in KJVSL[/SIZE] roy yacar yaw-sar' a primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct:--bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.



    As you can see, yacar means not only chastise, in some instances it means correct, in others correct, still others punish, etc.
     
    #10 standingfirminChrist, Aug 9, 2007
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    CHASTISE, v.t.
    1. To correct by punishing; to punish; to inflict pain by stripes, or in other manner, for the purpose of punishing an offender and recalling him to his duty.
    I will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev. 26.
    2. To reduce to order or obedience; to restrain; to awe; to repress.
    The gay social sense, By decency chastisd.
    3. To correct; to purify by expunging faults; as, to chastise a poem.

    I love words!
     
    #11 James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    It always trips me out how that being enlightened with the priestly knowlege always proves the "priestly" side.

    So if I point out that my enlightened self has discovered (through years of Strongs-Concordance Analysis, or SCA) that synonyms in English have their counterpart synonyms in Greek or Hebrew, then my side must be the correct one, no matter which side I'm on today.

    Big in the original Greek is Big!
     
    #12 Lacy Evans, Aug 9, 2007
  13. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
     
    #13 Lacy Evans, Aug 9, 2007
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Might I add that Strongs says that the primary meaning of the word is found before the colon or semi-colon. If that word does not fit, then one of the secondary group of words will.
     
    #14 standingfirminChrist, Aug 9, 2007
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am what one might call KJV-preferred. But I don't stick my head in the sand and limit myself to proper Bible study. If you don't know what the word means then this discussion is fruitless. If you are unwilling to find out what the word means then this discussion is fruitless. Paul commended the Bereans for their searching of the Scriptures daily. Remember that their Scriptures (the OT) were written in Hebrew, not the KJV.
    If you don't know the meaning of the word how can the Bible tell you what it means? That is a ridiculous assumption. And yes context very much has a direct bearing on the meaning of many words. Let me give you some examples, and you can answer for me. What is the meaning of the word "conversation," and without a dictionary how would you know. Today it means "meaningful communication between two or more people."

    What did it mean to Timothy when Paul told him:
    1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

    What does it mean here? And how do you know?
    Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    Words change meanings. Many words have more than one meaning. Look up the English word "church." How many meanings do you find? The Biblical word has only one.
    Like the English word "cider" it has two meanings: unfermented wine and fermented wine. Only context can determine the meaning of the word.
     
    #15 DHK, Aug 9, 2007
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Lacy,
    Can I make a practical suggestion? Your signature line takes up a full 3 centimeters. That is well over an inch. If you would change it to something a lot more modest (meaning smaller) we would save a lot of bandwith, and perhaps a few more posts would be able to be added in before the thread gets closed.
    Just a suggestion.
     
    #16 DHK, Aug 9, 2007
  17. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Do they sell bandwidth by the inch now? ;)
     
    #17 James_Newman, Aug 9, 2007
  18. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Yes sir. I'm on it.
     
    #18 Lacy Evans, Aug 9, 2007
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Look at it this way. Threads are generally closed at around 30 pages. I have known some posters that made extremely long posts, some as long as one entire page. That is what I call "bandwith." Most of the posts here are not so long, in fact, fairly short giving a chance for many posters to post. But if Lacy continues to post, just like those posters who posted such long posts (and were rebuked for it), Lacy is taking up valuable space that could be used for someone else's post. Othewise this thread willl come to an end much quicker. I hope you can understand what I am saying.
    (Of course the same would hold true for others that take up a lot of "signature space).
     
    #19 DHK, Aug 9, 2007
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I can say from experience that if you put Lacy on ignore, his posts take up almost no room at all. ;)

    Just kidding -- couldn't resist.
     
    #20 npetreley, Aug 9, 2007
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