Biblically "Authorized" Worship

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: What we have to avoid is the focus on the human beings, the preachers, and singers but God should be centered and exalted, and glorified, with many people participating there, instead of the one-man-show by the preacher as all the believers are the honorable guests to the party hosted by our Lord Jesus, prepared with His Blood.

HP: Often we try and hire in the most talented preacher, singer, player, songwriter, etc, and then allow those individual to control almost every aspect of the worship service, often dominating every service as if though to ‘lord over the flock.’ They take it upon themselves to control every aspect of worship under the guise of “God has put me here to protect the flock from all other influences other than those of my own.” They are often arrogant, self-willed, and will not tolerate or entertain any insight, God forbid any correction, from anyone other than possibly the highest donor.

The attitude is often if you don’t like my program, go find yourself another church. Be warmed and be filled………..but somewhere else. Don’t try and edify us with your babblings. We know it all, and do not need or desire your input unless it is supportive of what we say and do here.

Did that attitude prevail in many of the NT congregations, including some Paul tried in vain to instruct and help?

 

[DHK]

HP: First, God’s activity in this world is not limited to my personal experiences, insight or abilities. I can say that I personally have never witnessed the sign gifts in a way that would persuade me, on my personal visual evidence alone, that they are in operation today. I can tell you that especially in the terms of missions, the Pentecostals often lead the way. I thank the Lord that the gospel of Jesus Christ is going forth by their means, for if evangelization was left to me and you, where would missions be today?

Pentecostals often make wild claims, none of which can be verified. The Benny Hinn type of claim--that he has raised people from the dead, cannot be verified. The only thing that is verified that it was a hoax. The same is true of other such claims. The Apostles were given such gifts. They have never happened since that time. It is the excuse of some: "I don't want to limit God." It has nothing to do with limiting God. God chooses to speak and act in some eras differently than in other eras. This is evident by what he says in Hebrews 1:1,2

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--In the OT, he spoke at different times and in different ways to the prophets.
To Moses he spoke through a burning bush. He doesn't do that today.
To Joseph he used a series of visions. He doesn't do that today.
To Samuel, he spoke audibly so he could hear Him. He doesn't do that today.
To Jacob he spoke in the midst of a wrestling match. He doesn't do that today.
To Daniel he spoke in dreams and visions. He doesn't do that today.
To Manaoh, he spoke via an angel. He doesn't do that today.

He has in these last days spoken to us through his son. He speaks to us through His Word, by which His Son is revealed. His Son promised to send us a Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would guide us into truth. He does that as we read His Word. Everything that we need to know about God is contained within the pages of the Scripture. God doesn't not use the same methods that He did during the OT, or during the time of Christ, or during the Apostolic Age. If you study the Bible carefully you will find certain times in the Bible where God did miracles (many of them), and every one those periods were associated with the giving of revelation.
1. During the time of Moses. Moses gave the Law (and other revelation). Associated with that were the plagues of Egypt, as well as many other miracles throughout the wilderness wanderings.
2. During the time of the Prophets. We can see the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, representative of the prophetic age.
3. During the time of Christ--miracles that established his divinity. These miracles were of such a nature that they could never be duplicated by any man. Walking on water, calming the sea, Feeding the 5,000, etc. Man cannot duplicate such miracles.
4. During the time of the Apostles. Again revelation was being written. The miracles attested them and their message as being from God. They are no longer in operation today. God's revelation has ceased. The Bible is complete.
God speaks to us through His Son (through His Word by which the Son is revealed).

Let’s say that the sign gifts are not operational, yet some proclaim as they spread the gospel, they are. Would they be in any less error than much of the preaching and teaching in many of what we might call the ‘orthodox’ churches today?

Have you heard of the prosperity gospel? The health and wealth gospel? The gospel of the Third Wave movement? Would they be in error? Yes, their gospel is a different gospel. It becomes a gospel of works and not of grace. If a person is not healed it is because the "sick" person does "not have enough faith" when in James the opposite statement is found. "The prayer of faith (pastor's prayer) shall save the sick." The whole movement is built on fraud.
Don't get me wrong. God does miracles. God heals. But he does so through answer to prayers; not the gifts of the Spirit which have ceased. There is a difference between an answer to prayer and the gift of the Spirit.

I think not. It is obvious to me that God often works in spite of our doctrines and practices. God has indeed used the Pentecostals to further His gospel in ways you and I will never see accomplished.

Like Billy Graham, that is in spite of their error, not because of it.

That by no means is evidence that you or I would agree with them on the sign gifts. That is no indication that God still could not use the sign gifts for His own purposes in the future if He so chooses to do so. As I have said before, as we reach the culmination of the final age, we will have to be very discerning, for the devil will also be at work with signs and wonders.

And the devil does. And many are deceived by him. But nowhere in this world can anyone point to the sign gifts as operational today just as they were in the time of the Apostles. I have yet to see that evidence. I have challenged Pentecostal after Pentecostal, and they all have come up short.

 

[DHK]

HP: 1Co 14:26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

I would agree that the Corinthians were receiving much needed instruction from the apostle Paul, yet just the same I see no reason to believe that the verse in question is telling them that they should not be bringing doctrines, psalms, tongues or revelations to the assembly for the edification of al, but rather when they do to do all things unto edifying in an orderly fashion. As for tongues, they were instructed clearly NOT to forbid the speaking in tongues. Just the same, Paul did rebuke them for the misuse of that gift, and laid out prophesy in their own language as far more edifying to the whole congregation, unless their was an interpreter. Just the same, it was Paul’s wisdom and practice to speak words in their own language as opposed to tongues within the assembly. While he gave them His opinion, he allowed for the Spirit to utilize means he personally did not feel was needed.

God has taught me to be VERY careful in writing of what at the time seemed to me as being done in the flesh, lest I mistakenly utter contempt upon what might in fact be of the Spirit. Although I believe Scripture never instructs us to seek tongues or a sign gift, I will error on the side of caution as opposed to saying ‘no sign gifts’ are in operation today, or that they have no place in the church today. I believe that we as believers can judge the doctrines associated with any manifestation according to the Word of God, or judge when the gifts are clearly used not in accordance to the instructions Paul laid down for the church. Just the same, all correction or admonishment must be accomplished in love.

HP: Yes, he rebuked them, but never did he say any of those things were expressly forbidden. He did not admonish them that to have a psalm, a doctrine, a revelation or an interpretation was in error, did he? He simply told them to do all things to edifying, decently and in order.

HP: Again, although I agree that there was obvious chaos, Paul never told them or implied that they could not or should not do any of the things mentioned, but rather to do ALL things to the edification of the whole body of believers.

Even if it was as you say, that Paul was saying, "You know everything don't you!" But you don't, do you” you still cannot extrapolate that interpretation to suggest that he was forbidding the very things he was trying to get them to do decently, in order, unto edification.

Look at what Barnes says on this matter:

Verse 26. How is it then, brethren? Cmt. on 1Co 14:15. What is the fact? What actually occurs among you? Does that state of things exist which I have described? Is there that order in your public worship which is demanded and proper? It is implied in his asking this question that there might be some things among them which were improper, and which deserved reproof.
When ye come together. For worship.

Every one of you, etc. That is, all the things which are specified would be found among them. It is evidently not meant that all these things would be found in the same person, but would all exist at the same time; and thus confusion and disorder would be inevitable. Instead of waiting for an intimation from the presiding officer in the assembly, or speaking in succession and in order, each one probably regarded himself as under the influence of the Holy Spirit; as having an important message to communicate, or as being called on to celebrate the praises of God; and thus confusion and disorder would prevail. Many would be speaking at the same time, and a most unfavourable impression would be made on the minds of the strangers who should be present, 1Co 14:23. This implied reproof of the Corinthians is certainly a reproof of those public assemblies where many speak at the same time; or where a portion are engaged in praying, and others in exhortation. Nor can it be urged that in such cases those who engage in these exercises are under the influence of the Holy Spirit; for, however true that may be, yet it is no more true than it was in Corinth, and yet the apostle reproved the practice there. The Holy Spirit is the Author of order, and not of confusion, 1Co 14:33; and true religion prompts to peace and regularity, and not to discord and tumult.

It is evident that every one did not have a psalm; every one did not have a revelation, etc. This is what Bob has been so strongly advocating. Some had a Psalm; some a doctrine; some a revelation. Not all had a revelation. They were all speaking at the same time, and an ensuing chaos resulted. The verse is a rebuke, not an encouragement.