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Birth defects

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Helen, Jan 6, 2006.

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  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I don't want to hijack the homosexuality thread, but the claim was made there that birth defects are not the result of sin and that they are not bad.

    That blew me away. The very word 'defect' gives an idea of what is going on there! A birth defect is when something goes wrong. They come in all manner of severity, from the embarrassment of an extra finger or a birthmark on the face to the lethal spilling out of a brain or guts. They can be hidden, such as the one in my knees (I have cartilege where I shouldn't have it and don't have it where I should) or horridly obvious, as with cleft palates and lips or worse. I cannot even begin to describe the horror of some of the birth defects I have been aware of and seen, many of which are lethal. I would want to mention also that even though a birth defect might be hidden, as mine is, pain or limitation can be present.

    Did God do this, or did He allow it? Are birth defects the result of a fallen creation due to sin, or are they apart from that and from God?

    I know, as Romans 8:28 says, that God allows only those things to occur which can and do work for the good of those who love Him. That does not mean He is the author of those things, though. Death is the result of sin. A great number of birth defects result in death. Some simply cripple for life. Some, such as mine, simply mean you battle pain, to some degree or other, every day of your life.

    None of this is part of a 'very good' creation. it is all part of a fallen and dying creation and we did that through sin.

    The fact that God can use even these horrors to bring glory to Himself shows HIS incredible abilities and power. That He limits these horrors to what He can use I am totally grateful for. That He might be the direct cause of these things I totally reject.

    Jesus healed the sick. He did not make well people sick.
     
    #1 Helen, Jan 6, 2006
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Helen,

    You believe all birth defects are a result of sin and are bad things. Please support this with scripture.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #2 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 6, 2006
  3. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    I didint get that from her post at all. It seems that she is saying that all creation is tainted by sin, which would be a reason birth defects occur. Maybe I missed something.
     
    #3 TaterTot, Jan 6, 2006
  4. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    someday, Joseph, if you and your wife are ever "blessed" enough to have a child where the doctor comes and tells you that a birth defect is involved, you tell me if you think you need a Scriptural quote for the fact that your heart is going to miss a beat and you are going to feel torn apart inside.

    One of the first questions you will ask is "Will our baby die?" Because you will know that is one common result of birth defects of any serious nature. And death is a result of sin.

    You will know then. You will not be playing theological games then.

    And if you prefer to draw a line somewhere between birth defects that are not bad and those that are, I would be very curious as to where that line would be.
     
    #4 Helen, Jan 6, 2006
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Hi Tater,

    Yes. You missed the context of the original thread that started this conversation where Helen said the following:

    web page

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #5 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 6, 2006
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I guess the emotional argument means you have no Scripture to back up your false doctrine. BTW, you don't know me or anything about my family. Don't ever be so bold and arrogant to tell me what life experiences I have or haven't had and how I should or would respond to it. Finally, let God be true and every man a liar. Regardless of my emotional reactions to a certain situation, God and his word is and always will be the sole standard of truth for my doctrine.

    You use whatever standard of truth you wish. As for me and my house, we will consult the Word of God.

    Good Night.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #6 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 6, 2006
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I guess if you are Calvinistic, that is the only way you can come at this.

    That's one more reason I am not a Calvinist. I know that Jesus healed. He would not have felt the desire or need to heal had the problems been created by God in the first place. After all, He is God -- why would He work against Himself?

    I also know what the word 'defect' means. God is perfect. James tells us that every good and perfect gift comes from above.

    Birth defects bring pain and sorrow and, often, death. Maybe Joseph somehow has it in his mind that a good a perfect gift results in pain, sorrow, and death. But, in reading the Bible, I get the distinct impression that these are the result of the fall of man.
     
    #7 Helen, Jan 6, 2006
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Yes. Reading the Scripture is how I came to be a Calvinist. I am glad you finally realized it. Now, perhaps you might show us where in Scripture you find that all birth defects are the result of sin and that all birth defects are bad without reverting to the typical emotional drivel, misdirection, and attacks on Calvinism. Do you think you could stay on topic long enough to provide Scripture to back up your belief about birth defects? Let's see if you can.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #8 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 6, 2006
  9. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

    The old order, Joseph, is this one -- the one destroyed by sin, where there IS death and mourning and crying and PAIN. God wipes all of that out. He does not cause it.

    As far as your first sentence in your last post, I am amazed at how you can twist what I say and mean and, somehow, do it with a seeming 'straight face.'

    In the meantime, I told you that birth defects, when serious lead to death. Death is from sin, sometimes by way of birth defects! I told you that Jesus heals. All that is Scriptural, or do you have a different Bible?
     
    #9 Helen, Jan 6, 2006
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You believe Adam and Eve were created with birth defects? If not, when did they begin?
     
    #10 webdog, Jan 7, 2006
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    BTW...death in itself is a birth defect, one all men have. This means that ALL birth defects are indeed a result of sin. Man was not created to die, but only after sin was death even an option.
     
    #11 webdog, Jan 7, 2006
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    1. Not all birth defects cause pain nor death.

    2. Not all birth defects or physical ailments are the result of sin. Some physical things have a specific purpose, as Jesus made clear with the blind man, which is to bring glory to God.

    3. The old order in the verse to which you refer is dealing with spiritual death, since we are dealing with a passage which is talking about heaven, when Jesus shall wipe away every tear.

    4. Sometimes birth defects do cause death. But not always. So, that argument goes down in flames also.

    5. Unnless you are reading the Word of Faith Study Bible for heretics, no I don't. I just actually spend time reading mine and consider it my sole authority for correct doctrine instead of relying on emotionalism. It is called sola scriptura.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #12 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 7, 2006
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    You believe Adam and Eve were created with birth defects? If not, when did they begin? </font>[/QUOTE]I believe the Scripture does not address this issue. If you can prove me wrong, please do by all means. Use Scripture, please.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #13 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 7, 2006
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Your statement is so devoid of logic that I am surprised you made it. Not all birth defects lead to death or even cause pain.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #14 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 7, 2006
  15. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Joseph,

    Tater had it right on!

    Helen is saying that we live in a fallen universe. The universe is cursed now.........because of sin.

    Because sin has entered the world there are problems in it, such as birth defects. I don't get why you have such a problem with this statement.

    No one here is saying that a birth defect in a specific baby is always the result of a specific sin of those parents.
     
    #15 bapmom, Jan 7, 2006
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I view all sufferings {death, disease, physical disorders, birth defects, anomalies, etc) as a result of the sin principle which entered the world via "one man".

    While some birth defects are not painful, the fact that they are called "defects" must mean that something is amiss, less than perfect.

    Presumably in the resurrection all defects and/or imperfections will be removed.

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Romans 8
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    HankD
     
    #16 HankD, Jan 7, 2006
  17. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Wow, looks like some major misunderstandings happening.

    Joseph, it seems you believe Helen is saying that birth defects in an individual are the result of something the individual did wrong, when she strongly suggests that there would be no birth defects in the world if sin never happened. Also, Calvinism is not being done a favor by any suggestion that man is not responsible for sin, that it's on God. That is NOT a Calvinistic belief.

    Part of the result of sin is corruption, of both the spiritual and physical. When man started working the ground and when the natural system changed to allow rain, when the earth was vastly disturbed, the corruption not related to the spiritual started and the opportunity for genetic anomalies.
    It's imperfection, and not how things were created to work. Yes, it may be used for good somehow. It may glorify God beyond description when our loved ones stand healed and perfected, it may even cause major changes in people's lives on earth that work out some good, they may keep us human and remind us that others need our help.
    But...there's no denying that imperfections are not the result of good.
     
    #17 Gina B, Jan 7, 2006
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You believe Adam and Eve were created with birth defects? If not, when did they begin? </font>[/QUOTE]I believe the Scripture does not address this issue. If you can prove me wrong, please do by all means. Use Scripture, please.

    Joseph Botwinick     </font>[/QUOTE]You obviously believe, then, God's original creation was not perfect. If God says it was "good", that means perfect. there are just some things that you will not get obvious visual proof from scripture. I know God would not create an imperfect world with imperfect creatures and humans.That's what faith is. If you need visual proof, that's sad.
     
    #18 webdog, Jan 7, 2006
  19. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Actually good does not necessarily mean perfect. If you look at each day of creation, one of those days, God said of His creation that 'it was very good'. Is not very good better than good. Can one perfect that which is already perfect? Good in these instances must not have meant perfect, but rather pleasing in God's eyes.
     
    #19 standingfirminChrist, Jan 7, 2006
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Your statement is so devoid of logic that I am surprised you made it. Not all birth defects lead to death or even cause pain.

    Joseph Botwinick     </font>[/QUOTE]My statement is devoid of logic?!? You are the one that thinks God created man to die! Read what I posted. I never claimed that all birth defects lead to death or cause pain. I said that death in itself is a defect...one not created by God but by sin. Are you even familiar with what a "defect" is? If not, here you go...
    Defect
    DEFECT, n. [L. To fail ; to make or do.]

    1. Want or absence of something necessary or useful towards perfection; fault; imperfection .

    If you believe God "failed" or is "imperfect", you have a warped view of God's sovereignty!
     
    #20 webdog, Jan 7, 2006
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