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Blinded there eyes? Totally Depraved?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by philg, Jul 20, 2005.

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  1. philg

    philg New Member

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    39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart;
    that they should not see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their heart,
    and be converted, and I should heal them.


    John 12:39-40
    see also Matt 13:13-15 and 2 thess 1:11-12

    The scriptures say he blinded them lest the see and understand and be converted.

    My question is this...If totally depraved man will never choose God then why must God blind them lest they see and understand and be converted?
     
    #1 philg, Jul 20, 2005
  2. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    The blindness is depravity.
     
    #2 whatever, Jul 20, 2005
  3. philg

    philg New Member

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    The blindness is depravity. </font>[/QUOTE]That makes no sense. Are you saying that if God did not blind them they could believe? The reason they cant believe is not there own depravity but becasue God blinds them?
     
    #3 philg, Jul 20, 2005
  4. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease Member

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    Don't forget these in Matthew 11 too
     
    #4 LaymansTermsPlease, Jul 20, 2005
  5. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Don't forget these in Matthew 11 too
    </font>[/QUOTE]Notice the above passage says "if" those works were down. Why wheren't they done? Because God choose not to have them done, as an act of His sovereign will.
     
    #5 4His_glory, Jul 21, 2005
  6. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Correct.
     
    #6 4His_glory, Jul 21, 2005
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    philg,

    Are you saying because you do not understand why God would do this, that we need to change the meaning of seeing with their eyes...and understanding in their heart to mean something else that fits your understanding?

    Somethings maybe hard to understand. But lets not change the meaning for we do not understand.

    In Christ....James
     
    #7 Jarthur001, Jul 21, 2005
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello LaymansTermsPlease nice to meet you. :cool:
    What do you think of this answer?

    Hello philg.
    He is not the Sweet Jesus we have been brainwashed with. ...they cant believe is not there own depravity but becasue God blinds them? And that would be their depravity.

    He did not just say that we must not be allowed to reachout and take from the tree of life but He put a guard on it to prevent discovery. :cool:
    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
    So you accept the fact that He does blind the eyes of men?

    john.
     
    #8 johnp., Jul 21, 2005
  9. philg

    philg New Member

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    Don't forget these in Matthew 11 too
    </font>[/QUOTE]Notice the above passage says "if" those works were down. Why wheren't they done? Because God choose not to have them done, as an act of His sovereign will.     </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that God does not desire the salvation of people in place where he does not do mighty works? Where are all the mighty works today? Jesus was not on earth during that time to do all those mighty works among them. That was the point being made No one denies that some people have more advantage than others. Paul even talked about the advatages of the Jews but everyone has sufficent light.
    The Jews did not believe in spite of the works.
    Tyre and Sidon would have.

    No matter how you slice it. Even if you try to say that God purposly meant for them to be damned.
    These passages still prove that Total inabilty as taught by the Calvinist is false..

    Look what else Jesus said:
    22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Matt 11:22

    Why? Becasue the Jews had a more light that Tyre and Sidon yet they would not beleive.

    Also, what about the 1st verse I gave and the other 2 I listed?
    Why must God blind totally depraved people do that they will not see and understand and be converted?
     
    #9 philg, Jul 21, 2005
  10. philg

    philg New Member

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    philg,

    Are you saying because you do not understand why God would do this, that we need to change the meaning of seeing with their eyes...and understanding in their heart to mean something else that fits your understanding?

    Somethings maybe hard to understand. But lets not change the meaning for we do not understand.

    In Christ....James     </font>[/QUOTE]No, I understand why he blinded them. Its very understadable. The point is why would he have to if total inability as taught by Calvinist is true?
     
    #10 philg, Jul 21, 2005
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It's that "mystery" we hear about... [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #11 webdog, Jul 21, 2005
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    maybe so webby. to tell you the truth..i need to study that passage. I can't today. but if the subject is still alive tomorrow...i'll see if i can add my thoughts.

    right now all i know is he did it..and it is talking about something in the past.

    when looking backward God often speaks as if the event just happened...and the same can be found when he looks forward....as if it will happen very soon. Very soon for God maybe 3000 years. The reason for this, as you know,...God does not own a clock. so 1 day is the same as 1000 years

    but..i really have no idea...till i look at it. just a idea


    In Christ...James
     
    #12 Jarthur001, Jul 21, 2005
  13. philg

    philg New Member

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    What do you think of this answer?

    Hello philg.
    He is not the Sweet Jesus we have been brainwashed with. ...they cant believe is not there own depravity but becasue God blinds them? And that would be their depravity.

    He did not just say that we must not be allowed to reachout and take from the tree of life but He put a guard on it to prevent discovery. :cool:
    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.</font>[/QUOTE]And still this does not answer the question. Most Calvinst say becasue of mans depravity he cannot believe. You seem to believe that God prevents them from believing.
    The verse you have given does not even come close to proving this. God removed them from the Garden becasue of their disobedience. Also he made provision for them. In Genesis 3 we have the first blood sacrifice.
    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
    Genesis 3:21
    So you accept the fact that He does blind the eyes of men?[/quote]


    Sure do, when the continue in rejection of the truth.
     
    #13 philg, Jul 21, 2005
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello philg.
    What I am saying is that we are robots. What we are and where we are is dependant on the robot Master. :cool: He is not seperate from us. He has not wound the universe up and removed Himself but is immanent.
    Surely since God said man must not reachout and seeing as He put a guard on the tree of life then one would be lead to suspect that man could actually reachout and gain life. But we cannot because God causes us to be unable to.
    Sure did.
    Sure He did and without being asked! :cool: By Adam and Eve that is. That is from silence.
    Why? Why should He blind a person why not correct them? If He loved them you would think that He would not make them worse after all love keeps no record of wrongs. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails... 1 Cor 13:7.
    Any better?

    john.
     
    #14 johnp., Jul 21, 2005
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Then God is the author of sin and unbelief...He caused Adam and Eve to sin...He caused Lucifer to fall...God, who detests sin, creates it and causes it daily...God, then, is the author of confusion...which would make God a liar. I wouldn't hold to this theology too hard! Not the God of the Bible.
     
    #15 webdog, Jul 21, 2005
  16. philg

    philg New Member

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    What I am saying is that we are robots. What we are and where we are is dependant on the robot Master. :cool: </font>[/QUOTE]I apperciate the fact that you do take Calvinism to its logical conclusions. This is not even worth refuting.
    Surely since God said man must not reachout and seeing as He put a guard on the tree of life then one would be lead to suspect that man could actually reachout and gain life. But we cannot because God causes us to be unable to.[/quote]
    Quite diffrent from the Calvinist view of total inability. You have not proven that God blinds men randomly for no reason. Nothing here for me to refute.
    Sure did.
    Sure He did and without being asked! :cool: By Adam and Eve that is. That is from silence.[/quote]
    No one asked for the Provision of Jesus either. God provided a way of salvation--Jesus Christ.
    Faith is how he is received. Simple enough.
    Dont see you point here.
    Why? Why should He blind a person why not correct them? If He loved them you would think that He would not make them worse after all love keeps no record of wrongs. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails... 1 Cor 13:7.
    Any better?

    john.     [/QUOTE]

    Love is not Gods only attribute. There is also Holiness and justice.
     
    #16 philg, Jul 21, 2005
  17. philg

    philg New Member

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    Any Calvinsit that beleive in Total Inabilty care to comment on why God must blind totally depraved men??
     
    #17 philg, Jul 21, 2005
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Who's eyes did God blind?

    Was it not done to the Jews, God's chosen people because God has a special role for them throughout history AND beyond?

    Just think, if they had not been blinded, your eyes would not have been opened, because you would not have received the Gospel!
     
    #18 Wes Outwest, Jul 21, 2005
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Nope...

    context says it is talking about the apostles

    humm now that is something to think about..

    36While you have the Light, believe in the Light [have faith in it, hold to it, rely on it], that you may become sons of the Light and be filled with Light. Jesus said these things, and then He went away and hid Himself from them [was lost to their view].

        37Even though He had done so many miracles before them (right before their eyes), yet they still did not trust in Him and failed to believe in Him--

        38So that what Isaiah the prophet said was fulfilled: Lord, who has believed our report and our message? And to whom has the arm (the power) of the Lord been shown (unveiled and revealed)?(D)

        39Therefore they could not believe [they were unable to believe]. For Isaiah has also said,

        40He has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds and repenting and turning to Me to heal them.

    **************************************

    with out seeing the greek it now looks like it is showing at this point the apostles did not have full faith in him.

    DON"T SHOT ME...i'm just reading the text...and i realy don't know...just thinking and typing

    i still need to look it up tonight. i don't have study books here at work.


    but if this is true...this is a STRONG statement for man is DEAD in sins...and does not have faith...even with knowing somethings.

    just a thought...we shall see


    In Christ...James
     
    #19 Jarthur001, Jul 21, 2005
  20. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    That makes no sense. Are you saying that if God did not blind them they could believe? The reason they cant believe is not there own depravity but becasue God blinds them? </font>[/QUOTE]No, that is not what I am saying. That would be like saying that the reason blind people cannot see is not because they are blind but because their eyes do not work.

    What we mean by "depravity" is that God has blinded the eyes of unbelievers.
     
    #20 whatever, Jul 21, 2005
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