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Bogus Claims by Evols that Christians Misquote: A Test Case

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
On the "Christians Misquote" thread - the point is made that "Christians need to be honest" and certainly we can all agree with that point. Christians do need to be honest - even those that claim to be Christian and yet cling to atheist darwinism "anyway".

So here is a "test case" proposed by one of our atheist dawinist true believers -

Here is my latest reference to UTEOTW's own decision to bring up the Patterson test case --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=165

Here UTEOTW shows explicitly that she would like to label me with this problem specifically -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=164

She does this by stating the following -

"He specifically states that the interpretation of the quote that you are peddling is "wrong."

Surely you can step up to such a simple easy case. UTEOTW has provided such a perfect example as a test case showing my error. Why not take a little interest in actually SHOWING the details here?

I am starting this new thread - because the other one is growing past 17 pages and a special focus on THIS test case will be very instructive for all in seeing how the bogus claims of evolutionists are made and foisted onto the public.

The quote above is from my note to Charles Meadows asking that IN his stated agreement with UTEOTW's wild bogus claims on this topic - he at least accept this test case selected by UTEOTW and SHOW the work - SHOW the math SHOW that in fact I have some kind of misquote posted on this very issue that Patterson is identifying.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In the reference I provide above - the obejective thinking reader will instantly notice these glaring facts -

#1. Patterson is complaining about "some quote" that is "an exact quote" but does not contain the key context -- words that "continue" after the exact quote that is allegedly not really representing him - though it is an "exact quote".

Patterson states that the "EXACT QUOTE" he is complaining about is EXACT and IS correct "as far as it goes" - but he insists that the small snippet of text omitted at the end - is in fact his REAL view. It is only that small snippet that UTEOTW will actually POST -- carefully avoiding the large massive text quote that UTEOTW hopes the reader will not find out about.

#2. In that post of UTEOTW - the "continued text" Patterson harps on is what UTEOTW selects for us and so UTEOTW has the reader see clearly what Patterson insists SHOULD have been included with the initial "EXACT quote" that he is complaining about.

#3. Yet in "all this" there is NO quote at all provided by UTEOTW showing the allegedly "BAD quote" that Patterson is whining about!! Though I am getting accused of having it or saying it without ever adding the "fully correcting context" of the snippet that is stated in Patterson's letter ( on that thread above) and though I repeatedly whine that UTEOTW is avoiding the BAD quote (not showing us exactly what it is) --

UTEOTW just continues to accuse - never actually SHOWING the text that is supposed to be so bad.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
To put it another way - the Evolutionists have made their claim - their assertion that they COULD actually prove their accusation against Christians - that Chrsitians are misquoting atheist drawinists and in the specific example of Patterson's quote they claim that MY quotes are a perfect example of misquoting Patterson.

These are all wonderful assertions - but I offer this thread as an opportunity to go BEYOND accusation and to actually "show in detail" that this what I have done on these threads posted here.

Since it was THERE choice to claim that Patterson is a good example of their accusation being "seen" in fact -- then I offer this thread for them to actually "support with facts and details" the wild claim they make on assertion alone - to this point in time.

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Oh, BOb.

I have already prepared and delivered detailed reponses to two of you quotes. Just look on this page.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30022&page=21

Give us a response to how you really quoted Simpson and Gould in a way that preserved the original intent and opinion of the authors. Then maybe we'll talk about me rehashing my responses to your distortion of what Patterson had to say.

You picked what quotes you used, I picked which ones to give a detailed response to. Give satidfactory answers to those two, and maybe we will continue.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
But, hey, since you started a thread just for such, I'll cross post my responses over here. If it is too bad a violoation of the rules, the mods can delate the posts. But since the other thread is at 21 pages and likelt to be soon closed, the discussion might be better served here.

.........................................................

Well, we now have Bob on record as saying that the meaning of a quote should not change when you look at the larger context. So let's go back and take a look at some of his favorite material. This will require several posts, so I apolgize in advance for the string of posts.

Let's first get into the record just what Bob has posted since he earlier complainded that I was just repeating the quotes without his comments on them.

We saw begin this back on the 7th page of the thread.

Notice that the horse series "had to be discarded" - now the question is WHY? More importanly HOW did a bogus "series" get fabricated to start with?

"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.


Specifically HOW did a series that "never happened in nature" get put into the text books? Answer - it was ARRANGED in fossil order sequence and then published AS IF that arrangement had actually been found IN THAT SEQUENCE in the fossil record! When in fact - it had not!

How sad that in "making up stories" our evolutionist friends could not tell the difference between inconvenient fact - and fiction.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=784214&postcount=66

And in the next post

"Horse phylogeny is thus far from being the simple monophyletic, so-called orthogenetic, sequence that appears to be in most texts and popularizations."—George G. Simpson, "The Principles of Classification and a Classification of Mammals" in Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History 85:1-350.


But where did that "popularization" come from? How did that series MAKE it INTO the text books? Was it "someone having a dream and then publishing it" OR did someon ARRANGE a set of fossils and then SHOW THEM to the world AS IF such a smooth orthogenic transitional sequence had actually been found IN the fossil record just as was fraudulently presented!

Later we hear Bob speak of "the fraudulent, failed, debunked horse series that now stands fully and blatantly discredited EVEN by Atheist darwinists that CONTINUE to believe in evolutionism."

And

SIMPSON ADMITS that the horse series initially published -- and promoted as THE BEST example of evolution - was in fact BOGUS!! NOT because HE does not think horses evolved but because the STORY they were telling was so easily DEBUNKED as it was a pathetically transparent FABRICATION of a fossil SEQUENCE that is in fact NOT FOUND in that SEQUENCE in nature!

and

First the objective thinking mind NOTES that Simpson (atheist darwinist icon for evolutionists) is HIMSELF admitting that what they spewed out to the public was false when it comes to the exact fossil series they published!! He ADMITS that the "Series" the "SEQUENCE" did not HAPPEN in nature"

He does not claim that all of the fossils were "faked" just that the SEQUENCE - the ORDER they were placed in was a fake and then the STORY wrapped around that FAKED order (the story of smooth orthogenic transitional sequence) was also WRONG!
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Now it is time to start filling in the details to show how Bob has misunderstood and misrepresented the Simpson quote.

But first we need a few more quotes. The first, Bob himself was kind enough to give us on a different thread.

The line from Eohippus to Hypohippus exemplifies a fairly continuous phyletic evolution.
G.G. Simpson, Horses, 1951, pg 215

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=437725&postcount=1

And of course we need the whole quote itself.

The evolution of the horse family included, indeed, certain trends, but none of these was undeviating or orthogenetic. The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature. Increases in size, for instance, did not occur at all during the first third of the whole history of the family. Then it occurred quite irregularly, at different rates and to different degrees in a number of different lines of descent. Even after a trend toward larger size had started it was reversed in several groups of horses which became smaller instead of larger. As already briefly noted, the famous “gradual reduction of the side toes” also is something that never happened.

There was no reduction for the 15 or 20 million years of the history. There was relatively rapid reduction from four front toes to three (the hind foot already had only three toes). Many horses simply retained the new sort of foot without further change. In one group there was later another relatively rapid change of foot mechanism involving some reduction in size of the side toes, which, however, remained functional. Thereafter most horses retained this type of foot without essential change. In just one group, again, another relatively rapid change eliminated functional side toes, after which their descendants simply retained the new sort of foot.

In the history of the horse family there is no known trend that affected the whole family. Moreover, in any one of the numerous different lines of descent there is no known trend that continued uniformly in the same direction and at the same rate throughout. Trends do not really have to act that way: there are not really orthogenetic.

(The evolution of the horse family, Equidae, is now no better known than that of numerous other groups of organisms, but it is still a classic example of evolution in action, and a very instructive example when correctly presented…)
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Now, we have enough information to judge the varacity of the quote as presented.

It is a fairly simple manner to read through Bob's comments of the quote to see what it is that he claims about the quote.

(From my perspective, I find that Bob's opinions of the quote seem to have changed through the years. At one time, it seemed to me that he presented the quote as being a straight "admission" that horses did not evolve. Lately, he has tried a more subtle approach where he instead says that the quote is an admission that the original horse series "never happened.")

Bob basically asserts that before the time of Simpson, that there there was a fraudulent horse series passed off as true. Look at some of the words that he specifically uses. In the first post, Bob asks "did someon [sic] ARRANGE a set of fossils and then SHOW THEM to the worldAS IF such a smooth orthogenic transitional sequence had actually been found IN the fossil record just as was fraudulently presented!"

Bob shortly thereafter says

"Answer - it was ARRANGED in fossil order sequence and then published AS IF that arrangement had actually been found IN THAT SEQUENCE in the fossil record! When in fact - it had not!"

So what Bob is claiming is that fossils were fraudulently put into an order in which they did not occur in the fossil record, that this was done on purpose, and that Simpson is admitting as much.

That simply is not so.

Now if Simpson has said that "The transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus never happened in nature," Bob might have had a case to be made if the rest of the context still supported such a statement. But there are two key words in there.

"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus ... never happened in nature."

Those words, "uniform" and "continuous," are the key to understanding the passage.

Bob's assertion that the fossils that comprised the early series were not found in the order in which they are presented is patently false. Stratiography strongly supports the horse series as it was arranged then and today.

Here is an image, from a creationist site no less, that shows the modern tree and when and where the specimens lived. It shows that assertions that are often made, such as the fossils were not found in the right order or that the actual line was from fossils from the world over (one that Bob has also made in the past), just are not true.

http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/images/MacFadden.gif

The fossil horse from before Simpson's time were in the correct order, just there were few of them. The limited number of fossils led to an incorrect assumption of monophyletic evolution. Also called orthogenetic. This is where evolution happens in a straight line, with little or no branching, and at a fairly stead pace.

By Simpsons time, enough fossils had been discovered to show that the actual pattern was phyletic, or highly branching. Hence the quote from Simpson that "[h]orse phylogeny is thus far from being the simple monophyletic, so-called orthogenetic, sequence that appears to be in most texts and popularizations." And the statement that the "line from Eohippus to Hypohippus exemplifies a fairly continuous phyletic evolution"

All of these together show us that Simpson was pointing out that horse evolution was not "uniform" and "continuous" as had been previously thought. He was not at all suggesting that there was somehting fundementally wrong with the old horse series. Just that the mode and tempo of change was misunderstood because the record was not complete at the time.

The starting and endpoints were correct even in the original series. The known fossils in the original series were even in the right order, contrary to Bob's claims. They just didn't have all of the data. And as that data came in, nothing about the horse series changed except the pace of change and the depth of knowledge.

Now these are my assertions about the quote. Look at the full quote in context to see if it fits.

Look at the sentence immediately preceding Bob's quote. "The evolution of the horse family included, indeed, certain trends, but none of these was undeviating or orthogenetic." Sound familiar?

Look at the sentences immediately after Bob's quote. "Increases in size, for instance, did not occur at all during the first third of the whole history of the family. Then it occurred quite irregularly, at different rates and to different degrees in a number of different lines of descent. Even after a trend toward larger size had started it was reversed in several groups of horses which became smaller instead of larger." Notice that Simpson is not saying anything about fraud or about the fossils being in the wrong order or about mistakes that were made. He instead is discussing how the horse fossil record was anything but a "uniform continmuous transformation."

He uses the reduction of the toes as an example of another jerky transition in the horses.

He then says. "In the history of the horse family there is no known trend that affected the whole family. Moreover, in any one of the numerous different lines of descent there is no known trend that continued uniformly in the same direction and at the same rate throughout. Trends do not really have to act that way: there are not really orthogenetic."

Again, we see that it is the pace of change that Simpson is addressing. There is nothing of the sort that Bob alledges.

Simpson finally concludes that the evolution of the horse "is still a classic example of evolution in action."

Now, I have made a well reasoned case that the message that Bob presents about the quote is not one that is grounded in either fact nor in the context of the quote.

If Bob really thinks that he is presenting the quote accurately, then he should be able to show that I am mistating that quotes that I use to support my assertions. He should be able to show from the wider context that his interpretation is the more reasonable. And he should be able to show that the facts of nature agree with his assertions. (For example, he could show documented evidence that the horse fossils were really found way out of order.)
 

UTEOTW

New Member
And for his other favorite quote on this thread.

To understand how it got there - first you most understand the intellectual dishonesty that forms the heart of evolutionism's "story telling" passed off AS IF it was "science". Atheists sources admit to that background of deceit in this way --

The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however, reasonable, not the evidence of fossils[/b].” “Evolution’s Erratic Pace,” Natural History 86 (May 1977): p. 14.

So with that as the background - it is easy to see how one atheist darwinist might easily have used the 'same tactics' as described above to arrange and publish a sequence of fossils in an order NOT ACTUALLY found in the fossil record.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=784217&postcount=67

Bob refers to this quote later.

In that confession from Simpson the objective thinking mind begins to investigate DEEPER just HOW such an imaginary SEQUENCE could be presented as FACT when it was NEVER FOUND TO START WITH!! Because if they are doing that as "a matter of policy" then WHAT OTHER THINGS are also fraudulent.

It is THERE that the quote I provided about what athiest darwinist themselves call the "great secret of paleontology" comes in. Surely you remember it? It is quoted right here on this thread!

and again

How carefully you AVOIDED that quote you were claiming to explain (i.e. glossed over the inconvenient facts just to "fit your story" again.)

The key in the quote that you avoid -- is highlighted in BOLD for you.

(Actually for the objective reader who sees and reads with the thinking mind. But we both knew that of course)

The Quote is given in the context of the "NEVER HAPPENED IN NATURE" blunder of Evolutionism in terms of the early smooth orthogenic transitional sequence fraudulently presented as fact.

But the "telling" feature here is in the quote above where we see that "INFERENCE" is being portrayed as discovered fact!

and again

And in extreme cases - "inference that fills in as substitute for vast amounts of data".
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Once again, I think that this quote requires a little more quoting to be understood properly.

First, the Gould quote I have been presenting in response in a longer form.

[T]ransitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common -- and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. [snip Gould discussion of two detailed transtional sequences: humans from our last common ancestor with the other apes and mammals from the reptiles]

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am -- for I have become a major target of these practices.

I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record -- geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis) -- reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record. In most theories, small isolated populations are the source of new species, and the process of speciation takes thousands or tens of thousands of years. This amount of time, so long when measured against our lives, is a geological microsecond . . .

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

Gould, Stephen Jay 1983. "Evolution as Fact and Theory" in Hens Teeth and Horse's Toes: Further Reflections in Natural History. New York: W. W. Norton & Co., p. 258-260.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

And the full quote.

The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record:

The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory.

Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution [directly]. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots). I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks.

Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.

For several years, Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History and I have been advocating a resolution to this uncomfortable paradox. We believe that Huxley was right in his warning [1]. The modern theory of evolution does not require gradual change. In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
So let's get on with it.

I think that it is important from the very beginning to look at the title from which Bob's quote comes. "Life's Erratic Pace."

This becomes important as you start to look at what Gould was discussing. A whole paragraph from Gould is telling.

I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record -- geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis) -- reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record. In most theories, small isolated populations are the source of new species, and the process of speciation takes thousands or tens of thousands of years. This amount of time, so long when measured against our lives, is a geological microsecond.

And this, too.

Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

So Gould is discussing "life's erratic pace." Look at the quotes again. Gould talks about how "evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." Now let's think about this.

In biology, speciation is generally defined as the branching where a new species is born. Look at what Gould says. We have data from the "nodes of the branches." He also says that we have data from the "tips." The tips would be extant species, or at least known species. Put it together and what do you get?

Gould is discussing how it is that we have the larger transitions but are genrally lacking the smaller transitions. If he says that we have down to the "nodes of the branches, " that we have the tips and that we must "infere" what is in between, what does he mean? He means that genrally we are lacking the information about how an individual species changes with time and changes between species. He is saying that we genrally have good data for larger changes. To repeat in GOuld's own words, "[t]ransitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."

The quote that Bob lifted is from a writing describing just this phenomenon. Gould and Eldredge proposed punctuate equilibrium to explain just why this should be the case. In their theoru, most evolutionary change happens in relatively small populations over geologically short periods of time.

Now a common distortion of adherents of YEism is to say that PE was proposed to explain a lack of data. Nothing could be less true. If you go back to the early 1970's when they first proposed the theory, their paper outlined specific examples of where such change can be seen in the fossil record.

So what Gould was saying is seen in the fossil record with "extreme rarity" is transitions within species or between two species. Gould says that transitional forms are "abundant between larger groups."

It is important to note that most adherents of YEism will only allow "microevolution." This is exactly the kind of change that Gould notes is "extremely [rare]." The change giving rise to new genera, families, classes, orders, kingdoms and phyla, which YEers would deny as possible, Gould says is "abundant."

So, similar to what we saw with Simpson, GOuld is arguing against the idea of gradual change only. He says that "n fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record." Contrary to the expectations of YEers.

Again, I have laid out a good case that shows that Gould was speaking only of changes withing species, between the "nodes" and the "tips," when he says that the fossil record is rare. I have used quotes from the wider context and from other GOuld writings. If Bob wants to insist that he was right when he asserted that Gould was saying that transitionals in general are rare, then he should be able to show where I am mistating the opinion of Gould in my larger quoting. He should be able to show, using a broader context, where Gould actually thinks as Bob has asserted. And he should be able to show from the facts where transitionals at all levels are in fact missing.

What will we get instead.

Bob will respond. No doubt about that. There will be repeats of quotes with lot's of bolding. There will be phrases with quotation marks around them. In some cases he may be actually quoting someone and in some cases he will just be randomly inserting quotation marks. Very hard to tell which is which. There will be a lot of random words in all CAPS. The word "salient" will be in there somewhere. I'd guess he will keep misstating my gender. There will be a bunch of posts in a row, as well. Some will be repeats. Some may even be nothing more than quotes of what he said in a post one or two above the one in question.

But what you will not see is a detailed accounting as I have given showing where he preserved the original intent and opinion of those he quoted. You will not see long quotes to give you all of the context. You will not see links, as I gave in one case above, to where the entire original article can be read.

And, since I have done such detailed anaylsis with Bob in the past to no avail, you will continue to see him use these quotes in the future. He has been exposed but he has deluded himself into thinking that the quotes are valid. We all know better, now.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
So, Bob, you now have a straight forward task. (Though things are rarely straight forward with you when trying to be direct, especially.)

All you have to do in order to show that you were not quoting out of context is too show a few simple things.

1. You should be able to show, using the larger context, that it is you and not I who better represents what the author was trying to say originally and the you better than I represent the over all opinion of the author.

2. You should be able to show that you are the one presenting the more resonable interpretation of the quote by using the wider context and other wrtitings from the author in question.

3. And, if you can meet those challenges, for the quote to be valid you would then need to show using the underlying facts of science that the quote as you presented it best fits the data. After all, it remains possible to accurately quote someone who is simply wrong.

So you have to be able to show that you have better represented their original intent and overall opinion better than I have AND that the facts of the case (you know, stuff other than quotes) also best support your opinion.

Good luck.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
UTEOTW it is "you" that makes this bogus accusation "against me" that in fact the full context of Patterson's quote that YOU reference shows that I AM the one making the error he identifies.

I simply ask that you follow up your own vaccous accusation with "some fact" by SHOWING the supposed "bad quote" that PAtterson is complaining about in the text YOU PROVIDED.

Your spin and obfuscation is to say that WHEN YOU ACCUSE me without any facts at all to support you - it is up to ME to SHOW the full text of your OWN attack accusation against ME!

How sad that you would defend your "lack of fact" by arguing that I need to show YOUR text for you??!1

Why not try to show some integrity in your accusation? List "DETAILS" in your OWN accusation against me SHOWING that you are not simply "making stuff up". I have provided an entire thread for you to make your case and I have selected the example YOU chose!!

You could not ask for anything more!

So why so fact-shy UTEOTW?

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
You picked what quotes to use, I picked which ones to which I would respond.

I have made a detailed case for two of your quotes that show that I am the one presenting an opinion that is in line with what the authors were intending to say, I am the one presenting an interpretation in line with their other writings and I am the one presenting an interpretation in line with the accepted science.

If you disagree, then show that you have quoted in context by showing how your interpretation better fits these areas.

Please, show us how your presentation and interpretation of the quotes better fit the original intent and opinion of the authors in question.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
UTEOTW said:
Oh, BOb.

I have already prepared and delivered detailed reponses to two of you quotes. Just look on this page.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30022&page=21

Give us a response to how you really quoted Simpson and Gould in a way that preserved the original intent and opinion of the authors. Then maybe we'll talk about me rehashing my responses to your distortion of what Patterson had to say.

You picked what quotes you used, I picked which ones to give a detailed response to. Give satidfactory answers to those two, and maybe we will continue.

Checking out that link we find NO REFERNCE AT ALL to you addressing my quotes of Patterson OR YOUR OWN charges that I am misquoting Patterson OR the letter you posted (which is the subject of the OP - oh by the way).

Why misdirect and obfuscate "every time" UTEOTW??

Surely you can not be so insecure on THIS thread as well that you can not defend your OWN selected accusation against me claiming that I misquoted PAtterson - can you?

come on UTEOTW step up to the plate - show some integrity in your own accusation that I misquoted PAtterson - this is after all YOUR initiative as we SEE from the links given in my OP!

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
What a great Idea UTEOTW - hijack THIS thread trying to SWITCH this to a Simpson quote WHEN the OP is about your vaccuous charge that I am in error with a misquote of PATTERSON!

How wonderful that you think such a diversion would work for you.

I have exposed your blunder above with Simpson on the other thread here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=792743&postcount=213

go there and try to respond to the devastating case posted there that has totally debunked your obfuscation and use of Simpson.

Meanwhile -- "back to the OP" please -- the subject is your OWN CHOICE of a test case your OWN choice to select Patterson as the one that I am misquoting.

"Try" to stay on topic.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
UTEOTW - since you seem to be "limping along" on this thread -- I will help you.


Here is my first quote of Patterson in the SAME thread where UTEOTW attempts to claim I have misquoted Patterson.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=784211&postcount=65
Here we have a classic blunder where believers in atheist darwinism are seen to cling to their "orthodoxy" so blatantly that they are willing to "tell story after story" just to prop up their orthodox faith in evolutionism - presenting them as if they are "science".
The late Colin Patterson, while serving as senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, summed it up best when he stated that Archaeopteryx has simply become a patsy for wishful thinking. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is [b]no way of answering the question.[/B]

It is easy enough to [b]make up stories[/b] of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favored by natural selection. But such stories are not a part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test (as quoted in Sunderland, 1988, p. 102).



The "obvious" point here is that we have one of the heroes of believers in atheist Darwinism - an actual atheist - admitting that they are engaged in "story telling" and then this source actually confess the "obvious" saying that such stories "are NOT science".

What a huge confession!

Yet die hard devotees to atheist darwinism will turn a blind eye to this and come away from it "whining" that some dared to expose this inconvenient "detail" out in the open. They "spin" their complaint in some bogus argument claiming that Bible believing Christians can not dare quote Patterson UNLESS they can ALSO show that Patterson becomes a Bible believing Christian and accepts the Genesis account after confessing to such a huge blunder among evolutionists!

How sad that UTEOTW and other must resort to such antics.




Notice the EXACT quote from Patterson that I provide above -- it will be useful in "accusation post" from UTEOTW.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member

UTEOTW slanders Bob “again”

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=787688&postcount=120

And let's do Patterson too. [b]This is his response to Bob's deliberate misquoting.[/B] Emphasis added.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patterson

Dear Mr Theunissen,
Sorry to have taken so long to answer your letter of July 9th. I was away for a while, and then infernally busy. I seem fated continually to make a fool of myself with creationists. The specific quote you mention, from a letter to Sunderland dated 10th April 1979, is accurate as far as it goes
. The passage quoted continues "... a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way to put them to the test."

I think the continuation of the passage shows clearly that your interpretation (at the end of your letter) is correct, and the creationists' is false.

That brush with Sunderland (I had never heard of him before) was my first experience of creationists. The famous
"keynote address" at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 was nothing of the sort. It was a talk to the "Systematics Discussion Group" in the Museum, an (extremely) informal group. I had been asked to talk to them on "Evolutionism and creationism"; fired up by a paper by Ernst Mayr published in Science just the week before. I gave a fairly rumbustious talk, arguing that the theory of evolution had done more harm than good to biological systematics (classification). Unknown to me, there was a creationist in the audience with a hidden tape recorder. So much the worse for me. But my talk was addressed to professional systematists, and concerned systematics, nothing else.

I hope that by now I have learned to be more circumspect in dealing with creationists, cryptic or overt
. But I still maintain that skepticism is the scientist's duty, however much the stance may expose us to ridicule.

Yours Sincerely,

[signed]

Colin Patterson




I guess that you also know more about what Patterson meant than Patterson himself.



Here we see Patterson admitting that it is "so much the worse for him" that a tape recorder with EXACT innescapable reporting is available from the now famous speech!
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
My response is to point out the glaring vagaries in UTEOTW’s accusation


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=788798&postcount=165
couple of “sanity points” would be good to note here.

#1. UTEOTW DOES NOT provide the QUOTE that was given to Patterson and it is clearly “Not a quote of ME” – heaven only knows what conclusions were drawn or whether they were drawn in the form “Patterson has given up on evolutionism” or “Patterson has exposed some flaws in the overall doctrines and methods of evolutionists”.

But one thing that is certain – Patterson in this quote INSISTS that he IS being hard and being skeptical about evolutionism IN the speech!.

#2. Patterson CONTINUES the quote of “himself” with the text that I DO QUOTE repeatedly! That section Patterson claims is the part that truly DOES reveal his OWN VIEWS. That is the VERY section I continually quote from Patterson!!

#3. Patterson insists that NOT ONLY are the quotes “accurate” but even that they are from a literal audio recording – not simply inaccurate biased notes of some “creationist”. (Unless you want to claim that audio sounds that reaches a creationst’s tape recorded are dishonest IF they are coming from an atheist darwinist)

Patterson admits -

The specific quote you mention, from a letter to Sunderland dated 10th April 1979, is accurate as far as it goes”

“Unknown to me, there was a creationist in the audience
with a hidden tape recorder.”



In the reference I provide above - the obejective thinking reader will instantly notice these glaring facts -

#1. Patterson is complaining about "some quote" that is "an exact quote" but does not contain the key context -- words that "continue" after the exact quote that is allegedly not really representing him - though it is an "exact quote".

Patterson states that the "EXACT QUOTE" he is complaining about is EXACT and IS correct "as far as it goes" - but he insists that the small snippet of text omitted at the end - is in fact his REAL view. It is only that small snippet that UTEOTW will actually POST -- carefully avoiding the large massive text quote that UTEOTW hopes the reader will not find out about.

#2. In that post of UTEOTW - the "continued text" Patterson harps on is what UTEOTW selects for us and so UTEOTW has the reader see clearly what Patterson insists SHOULD have been included with the initial "EXACT quote" that he is complaining about.

#3. Yet in "all this" there is NO quote at all provided by UTEOTW showing the allegedly "BAD quote" that Patterson is whining about!! Though I am getting accused of having it or saying it without ever adding the "fully correcting context" of the snippet that is stated in Patterson's letter ( on that thread above) and though I repeatedly whine that UTEOTW is avoiding the BAD quote (not showing us exactly what it is) --

UTEOTW just continues to accuse - never actually SHOWING the text that is supposed to be so bad.

 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I find it curious that after UTEOTW fails to derail this thread from HIS OWN choice of "Patterson's accusations" he does not post here to defend his SELECTION of the Patterson example.

How instructive.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
I told you, you picked what quotes to use, I will pick which one to which I respond.

The other thread is being so enjoyable with you twisting in the wind, forced to pull quotes that support my position and to make comments that support my position and then pretend that you are arguing your case.

Admit defeat over there, or make a case for actually preserving the intent and opinion of Gould and Simpson (I notice you are not even giving Gould an attempt at a response) and then I'll think about responding to your choice.

Although I am not sure what more I need that Patterson saying that the creationist interpretation of his comments are "wrong." That sounds cut and dry to me.
 
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