Bogus Law Theories

[Andre]

The last phrase of Romans 3:10 says "all under sin" and the first phrase of Romans 3:10 says "as it is written." The term "as" translates "kathos" which is a combination of the Greek terms "kata" and "hos". The term "kata' means "in accordance with" and the term "hos" means "even, as, like."

Hence, you cannot possibly deny the connection between verse 9 and verse 10 and that Paul is calling upon scripture to prove that the Gentile is "under sin" NOT BY USE OF THE REVELATION OF NATURE or CONSCIENCE but by JEWISH SCRIPTURES.

I most certainly do deny that the Gentile is "under sin" in relation to the Law of Moses. Many Gentiles were born, lived, and died without ever hearing about the existence of the Law of Moses.

Yes the "it is written" bit tells us that the Gentile is also under sin - so I agree with that. But this does not mean that the Gentile is under sin specifically in relation to the Law of Moses. He is, as you seem to agree, under sin in virtue of "natural law".

God and His own righteousness is the SOURCE of both natural and special revelation and so they are inseparably connected through God.

Suppose you believed that God has revealed the content of the US Constitution to the American people. Even if the content of the US Constitution is "informed" by the same general moral principles that all human being are given in the form of "a law of conscience", this does not mean that non-Americans are subject to the US Constitution. They obviously are not.

I do not deny this "connection" you speak of. But the existence of the connection does not mean the Gentile is under the Law of Moses.

The bottom line is this: The fact that the Gentile is "under sin" and the fact that the Jewish scriptures say that the Gentile is under sin does not mean that he is under the Law of Moses.

So the "law" in 3:19 can still be the Law of Moses as applicable only to Jews.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I most certainly do deny that the Gentile is "under sin" in relation to the Law of Moses. Many Gentiles were born, lived, and died without ever hearing about the existence of the Law of Moses.

Yes the "it is written" bit tells us that the Gentile is also under sin - so I agree with that. But this does not mean that the Gentile is under sin specifically in relation to the Law of Moses. He is, as you seem to agree, under sin in virtue of "natural law".


Suppose you believed that God has revealed the content of the US Constitution to the American people. Even if the content of the US Constitution is "informed" by the same general moral principles that all human being are given in the form of "a law of conscience", this does not mean that non-Americans are subject to the US Constitution. They obviously are not.

I do not deny this "connection" you speak of. But the existence of the connection does not mean the Gentile is under the Law of Moses.

The bottom line is this: The fact that the Gentile is "under sin" and the fact that the Jewish scriptures say that the Gentile is under sin does not mean that he is under the Law of Moses.

So the "law" in 3:19 can still be the Law of Moses as applicable only to Jews.

Your response are irrational for several reasons. First, if the U.S. Consititution was written by God instead of by men and it was written instilling within it principles that are UNIVERSAL LAWS then whether you were a US citizen or not you still are in violation of the same UNIVERSAL PRINICPLES whether they are in or outside the US constitution by the fact that the Author is not limited to any race and the UNIVERSAL laws by their very nature are not limited to any race. The irrational aspect of your argument is your failure to carry through consistently the proper analogy and recognize that it was not men or the US that is the author but God and therefore UNIVERSAL LAW written into the US constitution is just as applicable to those outside the US as those inside becuause those particular laws are UNIVERSAL by their very nature and that the Author cannot be limited to the US.

Likewise, the law of conscience and nature are UNIVERSAL and their inclusion into the Mosaic Law does not make them less Universal and therefore less applicable than universal. Just because a universal law is found in an ethnic constitution does not invalidate its UNIVERSAL nature or application. The moral laws of God found in Jewish law does not make them less "moral" or less applicable to all God's creatures especially when the same law is written upon their conscience. Hence, violation of those UNIVERSAL laws are violations of them wherever they are found.

Secondly, Romans 3:10-18 does not say Gentiles are sinners per se. It is UNIVERSAL language that includes all mankind due to HUMAN NATURE that is universal and cannot be confined to any one ethnic group.

Thirdly, Romans 3:19-20 continues to use UNIVERSAL terms that cannot be restricted to any ethnic group. The law in Romans 3:19-20 is GOD'S LAW concerning GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS and it includes ALL universal aspects of that law as law of conscience and nature as well as all humanity under those universal aspect in addition to the Jews and those aspects relating to the Jews. God's moral laws are universal by nature and cannot be restricted to any ethnic race of mankind.

Fourthly, Romans 3:9-18 has no conclusion without Romans 3:19-20 and you cannot eradicate the Gentiles from Romans 3:9-18 any more than you can eradicate the Gentiles from the conclusion of Romans 3:19-20. Absolute proof is that Paul does not change the UNIVERSAL applications in Romans 3:9-18 to ethnic terms in Romans 3:19-20 but continues to use UNIVERSAL APPLICATION TERMS that transcends race, gender or status among mankind.

1. "EVERY mouth" not "jewish mouth"
2. "ALL the world" not "Israel" or "Jews"
3. "NO FLESH" not "Jewish flesh"

 

[Andre]

Your response are irrational for several reasons. First, if the U.S. Consititution was written by God instead of by men and it was written instilling within it principles that are UNIVERSAL LAWS then whether you were a US citizen or not you still are in violation of the same UNIVERSAL PRINICPLES whether they are in or outside the US constitution by the fact that the Author is not limited to any race and the UNIVERSAL laws by their very nature are not limited to any race.

No. God is not "required" to give a law to the Jews that is universal in nature. In fact, it is clear from the Scriptures that God gave the Law of Moses, at least in part, to set them apart as a unique people, distinct from other nations:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean.
26'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I (Z)have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

You seem to think that God is somehow obligated to give a Law to the Jews which necessarily governs the Gentile too. Why do you think this is so?

The fact that the Law of Moses is indeed, at least in part, grounded on universal principles does not mean that Gentiles are subject to it, as a written code. Most people would say "the US Constitution is grounded on principles of fundamental human rights". But no (sane) person would say this: "Citizens of France are governed by the US constitution". French citizens are not governed by the US constitution - certain elements make no sense in France anyway.

Those French citizens are arguably governed by the same universal principles that lie behind the specific document called the US constitution.

But they (the French) are certianly not "under" the US Constitution.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No. God is not "required" to give a law to the Jews that is universal in nature.

I did not say that! I said the law of Moses INCLUDED universal laws and the Gentile would be in violation of those UNIVERSAL LAWS whether they were included or not included since they were written upon their conscience and revealed in nature which both are UNIVERSAL in nature.

Hence, since these UNIVERSAL laws are INCLUDED within the Mosaic code, violation of them in the Mosaic Law by Gentiles would not depend upon being born a Jew but by the very fact they are UNIVERSAL regardless where they are found written - whether upon conscience, in nature or on paper. If you violate them, you violate them wherever they are revealed.

 

[Andre]

I did not say that! I said the law of Moses INCLUDED universal laws and the Gentile would be in violation of those UNIVERSAL LAWS whether they were included or not included since they were written upon their conscience and revealed in nature which both are UNIVERSAL in nature.

Well I would disagree.

The fact that the Law of Moses is informed by universal laws does not mean that the Gentile is under that specific written code. Again, every civilized nation has a law against murder that is presumably based on a "universal" law that murder is bad. But when a Canadian murders a Canadian, he is not violating the laws of the land of Norway.

The Gentile was never under the law of Moses, even if the Law of Moses is informed by a "universal law" that the Gentile is indeed under.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your Canadian versus Norway analogy is based upon cutting God out of the picture. The Canadian violates God's law of Murder as much as the Norwegian regardless where it is committed or upon whom it is committed regardless whether Canada even has a written law against it and Norway does.

Well I would disagree.

The fact that the Law of Moses is informed by universal laws does not mean that the Gentile is under that specific written code. Again, every civilized nation has a law against murder that is presumably based on a "universal" law that murder is bad. But when a Canadian murders a Canadian, he is not violating the laws of the land of Norway.

The Gentile was never under the law of Moses, even if the Law of Moses is informed by a "universal law" that the Gentile is indeed under.

 

[Andre]

Your Canadian versus Norway analogy is based upon cutting God out of the picture. The Canadian violates God's law of Murder as much as the Norwegian regardless where it is committed or upon whom it is committed regardless whether Canada even has a written law against it and Norway does.

No. My analogy was fine. The fact that there exists a "universal law of conscience" against murder does not suddenly make Canadians subject to the law against murder that exists in Norway, regardless of whether we ascribe that "universal law" to God or not.

The fact that God has a "universal law" against murder does not magically mean that the Gentile is subject to a written code that was only given to the Jews, even if that Jewish law does contain a prescription against murder.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No. My analogy was fine. The fact that there exists a "universal law of conscience" against murder does not suddenly make Canadians subject to the law against murder that exists in Norway, regardless of whether we ascribe that "universal law" to God or not.

The fact that God has a "universal law" against murder does not magically mean that the Gentile is subject to a written code that was only given to the Jews, even if that Jewish law does contain a prescription against murder.

No, your analogy is not fine as God did not personal give the law to Norway or Canada nor does Norway and Canada recognize God as the giver of their laws, however, God did personally write the law on conscience and upon stone - the same law.

More proper analogy would be the United Nations (God) giving Norway (Jews) and Canada (Gentiles) its law to enforce and so if a Canadian was in Norway or a Norwegian in Canada and they both committed murder, it is the United Nations (God's) law they violated and Canada and Norway are but administering the same law.

 

[Andre]

No, your analogy is not fine as God did not personal give the law to Norway or Canada nor does Norway and Canada recognize God as the giver of their laws, however, God did personally write the law on conscience and upon stone - the same law.

My analogy was fine.

Analogies, by their very nature, do not match the situation they are trying to illustrate exactly.

The point is that even though there might exist a "universal law of conscience" in respect to murder, whether originating from God or not, this does not mean that the Canadian is "under" the Norwegian law against murder.

More proper analogy would be the United Nations (God) giving Norway (Jews) and Canada (Gentiles) its law to enforce and so if a Canadian was in Norway or a Norwegian in Canada and they both committed murder, it is the United Nations (God's) law they violated and Canada and Norway are but administering the same law.

This is decidedly not an appropriate analogy for the matter at issue. In the analogy you propose, the source (the UN) gives a law that applies in both Canada and Norway.

But, in the case of the Jew and the Gentile, the source (in this case, God) did not give the Law of Moses to both Jew and Gentile, He only gave it to the Jew.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The point is that even though there might exist a "universal law of conscience" in respect to murder, whether originating from God or not, this does not mean that the Canadian is "under" the Norwegian law against murder.

Oh yes he is, if Norwegian and Canadian law are the SAME LAW from the SAME SOURCE.

This is decidedly not an appropriate analogy for the matter at issue. In the analogy you propose, the source (the UN) gives a law that applies in both Canada and Norway.

But, in the case of the Jew and the Gentile, the source (in this case, God) did not give the Law of Moses to both Jew and Gentile, He only gave it to the Jew.

What you fail to see is that Paul refers ONLY to those "things contained in the Law" of Moses rather than the entire law of Moses as the basis for synergism. In violating the law written on their conscience they also violate those "things contained in the Law" written on stone because they are ONE AND THE SAME LAW written by ONE AND THE SAME GOD.

They are not judged by other things written in the Law of Moses but they are and can be judged according to the the SAME THINGS contained in the law of Moses.

 

[billwald]

>Your response are irrational for several reasons. First, if the U.S. Consititution was written by God instead of by men and it was written instilling within it principles that are UNIVERSAL LAWS then whether you were a US citizen or not you still are in violation of the same UNIVERSAL PRINICPLES whether they are in or outside the US constitution by the fact that the Author is not limited to any race and the UNIVERSAL laws by their very nature are not limited to any race.

Then every instruction made by God to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the Prophets apply to every one of us? I should marry a prostitute?

 

[Dr. Walter]

>Your response are irrational for several reasons. First, if the U.S. Consititution was written by God instead of by men and it was written instilling within it principles that are UNIVERSAL LAWS then whether you were a US citizen or not you still are in violation of the same UNIVERSAL PRINICPLES whether they are in or outside the US constitution by the fact that the Author is not limited to any race and the UNIVERSAL laws by their very nature are not limited to any race.

Then every instruction made by God to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the Prophets apply to every one of us? I should marry a prostitute?

You by passed the qualification that I gave in that post. It reads as follows:

What you fail to see is that Paul refers ONLY to those "things contained in the Law" of Moses rather than the entire law of Moses as the basis for synergism. In violating the law written on their conscience they also violate those "things contained in the Law" written on stone because they are ONE AND THE SAME LAW written by ONE AND THE SAME GOD.

I am talking about the mutual law written on conscience that is also written on stone - common moral principles.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I..........the Gentile is also under sin - so I agree with that. But this does not mean that the Gentile is under sin specifically in relation to the Law of Moses. He is, as you seem to agree, under sin in virtue of "natural law". ...............

GE:

The Gentile - non-Christian - is under sin specifically in relation to the Great Law on which hang all the 'Law of Moses'. The 'unbeliever' is under sin because he is under THIS ONLY LAW by virtue of the law of natural INCLINATION, the 'law of man's fallen totally depraved nature.

Dr Walter, I find you posts interesting and often inspiring.

Could you let me have a book or something from or of yours?

GE

 

[Andre]

GE:

The Gentile - non-Christian - is under sin specifically in relation to the Great Law on which hang all the 'Law of Moses'. The 'unbeliever' is under sin because he is under THIS ONLY LAW by virtue of the law of natural INCLINATION, the 'law of man's fallen totally depraved nature.

I do not disagree with you, but my assertion is still accurate - the Gentile is not under the Law of Moses.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I do not disagree with you, but my assertion is still accurate - the Gentile is not under the Law of Moses.

What you fail to see is the synergism between the law of conscience and the law of Moses. Jesus summarizes the Mosaic law in its essential principle - to Love God and your neighbor as yourself and this is the same essential principle of law written on conscience.

Therefore, you are correct in saying that the Law of Moses is not the same as the law of conscience in regard to FORM but you are incorrect in denying they are the same in regard to MORAL EQUIVILENCY or the SPIRIT OF THE LAW! In regard to design, the Law of Moses is designed to teach but one thing - love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. This is the ESSENCE of Mosaic Law (Matthew 7:12) and this is the ESSENCE of the law written on conscience and it is this ESSENCE that is the SPIRITUAL STANDARD of God's righteousness that will be used to judge all men - Jew or gentile.