Born Again-Regeneration-Living Water-Holy Spirit

[Pastor_Bob]

Either way you want to look at it brother, it is everlasting life even if it has yet to reach full bloom. A daisy plant is still a daisy plant from birth even until it flowers.

Does the living water change into everlasting life? The living water is the everlasting life! It is "a well" that will overflow.

God Bless! :thumbsup:

When my children were young, we would often take long trips to see family. As we were travelling on the interstate, they would get excited when they would see a sign that said "Dallas - Next Exit." I had to explain to them that, when we got off at that exit, we wouldn't be in Dallas (or wherever); this exit simply "leads" Dallas. If we follow the signs, we will end in Dallas.

This "living water" that Jesus speaks of is His teaching, His doctrine, the gospel message that, when followed will lead to everlasting life. When we drink of this living water, we will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit that will be "in us" a spring of living water.

 

[steaver]

(Pastor Bob).....

This "living water" that Jesus speaks of is His teaching, His doctrine, the gospel message that, when followed will lead to everlasting life. When we drink of this living water, we will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit that will be "in us" a spring of living water.

I just don't see this in the scriptures highlighted in the OP. Since your post does not point specifically to any scriptures I cannot comment beyond saying I disagree.

God Bless! :thumbsup:

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I just don't see this in the scriptures highlighted in the OP. Since your post does not point specifically to any scriptures I cannot comment beyond saying I disagree.

Brother, I did exactly what you asked when you said:
"I would like everyone to give me their thoughts on this exposition that I have written. Go through each verse and give me a nod of agreement or a refute and another conclusion for each verse."

My thoughts are directly related to the verses you offer in th OP. My conclusions differ from yours. It is now up to you to support your conclusions.

 

[steaver]

(Pastor Bob)...

My thoughts are directly related to the verses you offer in th OP. My conclusions differ from yours. It is now up to you to support your conclusions.

I have supported my conclusions in the OP with scripture.

(Pastor Bob).....

This "living water" that Jesus speaks of is His teaching, His doctrine, the gospel message that, when followed will lead to everlasting life. When we drink of this living water, we will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit that will be "in us" a spring of living water.

Brother, the Holy Spirit is everlasting life and if He indwells us then we have everlasting life.

I point directly to John 7 for the definition of "living water" spoken of in John 4 to conclude that it is the Holy Spirit indwellment. John 4 tells us that it is the gift of God and that it is everlasting life, also an indwellment. These are the exact words the scripture declares.

You conclude that the "living water" Jesus speaks of is "His teaching" "His doctrine" "His gospel message" . Can you point to scripture that says this "living water" is in fact all of these? It can only be viewed as an unsupported opinion. I don't see scripture declaring what you have concluded. I do see scripture declaring that the living water is "everlasting" "the gift of God" and the "Holy Spirit". Can you provide text that says it is "His teaching, His doctrine, His gospel message"?

Secondly, let's examine your views; If correct, that this "living water" spoken of in John 7 is "His teaching, His doctrine, His gospel message", then these facts would ring true;

"His teaching" was not yet given until after His glorification.

"His doctrine" was not yet given until after His glorification.

"His gospel message" was not yet given until after His glorification.



God Bless! :thumbsup:

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Secondly, let's examine your views; If correct, that this "living water" spoken of in John 7 is "His teaching, His doctrine, His gospel message", then these facts would ring true;

"His teaching" was not yet given until after His glorification.

"His doctrine" was not yet given until after His glorification.

"His gospel message" was not yet given until after His glorification.

I have continually stated that the "living water" in John 7 refers to the Holy Spirit. He was not given, at least not like He would be given, until Jesus ascended to heaven.

 

[steaver]

(Pastor Bob)...

I have continually stated that the "living water" in John 7 refers to the Holy Spirit. He was not given, at least not like He would be given, until Jesus ascended to heaven.

And would not the "like He would be given" be in the form of "living water" that is described for us as "the gift of God" that "shall be IN you" and "shall be a well springing up into eternal life" (John 4) ? Is this not the regeneration described in John 3, Spirit gives birth to spirit, new creature is born by the Holy Spirit indwellment?

God Bless! :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

(Pastor Bob)....

The "gift of God," in this passage refers to Jesus Christ Himself (John 3:16).

It is true that Jesus Christ is "the gift of God" when one considers the full counsel of God's word, because many ingredients go into "eternal life". The "gift of God" does not serve divided and seperated. A cake is not a cake unless all of the ingredients are as one.

We can say Jesus Christ is God and this is a true statement. We can say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God and this is also a true statement and it does not change the truth that one can say Jesus Christ is God or the Holy Spirit is God or the Father is God.

Jesus Christ is the "gift of God". Jesus Christ is "eternal life". However, if we wish to split the hairs of the matter, the "gift of God" in this passage, as you say, would be the Holy Spirit. But with that said, receiving the Holy Spirit is also receiving eternal life and recieving Jesus Christ. They are all wrapped up as one in the same as revealed throughout scripture.

Mind the details of the passage.....

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

"If thou knewest the gift of God"........the gift is revealed in this same passage for Jesus tells her the gift He would give her.........."he would have given thee living water".

"and who it is that saith to thee"..........the Messiah is the one who comes from God and is given to the people to teach them all things and is given the power of God to do all things. This the women concedes when she says..."I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."(vs 25) It is through Jesus alone one can receive this living water which we know from other scripture is the Holy Spirit (Jhn 7:39) and which we also know from other scripture is eternal life (Jhn 4:14).

"thou wouldest have asked of him".......the Messiah has the power to give eternal life, this is what the people searched for, this is what Jesus is come to offer. Jesus must die for the sins of the world, this is the work the Father gave Him to do and He must do it, however the gift that is offered is eternal life and this is through faith in Jesus Christ and is spiritually given as a possession (rebirth) via the Holy Spirit or Living Water.

This same message is given in Luke..... Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Here it is said the Father will give the gift of the Holy Spirit. Is it the Father who will give the Holy Spirit/Living Water or is it Jesus the Son? Do I ask Jesus or do I ask the Father? It is both, one in the same in power. If it is from the Father it is also from the Son, "I and the Father are One" Jesus said. "If you seen Me you seen the Father", He said. "I speak the words the Father gave Me to speak", He said as well.

The "gift of God" is eternal life and that life is in the Son and through faith in the Son. The "gift" is administered by the giving of the Holy Spirit. No Spirit, no life. No Jesus, no life. You cannot have One without the other.

We can split the hairs of this single passage and it would be the Living Water/Holy Spirit which is the offered gift, but the "gift of God" in it's full revelation is eternal life and that life is in faith in the Son, and granted via the Holy Spirit/Living Water indwellment.

Gerhard had said in another thread on this subject that Jesus said He was the Water of Life. I believe he is refering to Jesus saying in Revelation to come and drink freely from the water of life, Now this does proceed out of the throne of God and out of the Lamb/Jesus (Rev 22:1) however a search on "living water" will only turn up the Holy Spirit. Then again we must remember that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all One. One can truly say they have the Spirit of Christ when refering to the Holy Spirit Himself.

So let's be careful not to get hung up on seperate ingredients and rather keep the finished cake in mind! The "gift of God" is "eternal life". "Eternal life" has more than one ingredient as laid out above.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Pastor Bob)....

The "gift of God," in this passage refers to Jesus Christ Himself (John 3:16).

You see if you made this statement from the pulpit and I was one of your flock I would be scratching my head because in the same sentence (John 4:10) Jesus tells the woman what He would give her and that is "living water". And then when I would have read my references that are in most every bible and it would have lead me to John 7:39 and I would read that this living water is the Holy Spirit.

So you have to be careful to explain "the gift of God" in it's fullness revealed throughout the scriptures and give all the ingredients being careful not to portray that one ingredient can stand apart and alone from another and it still be functional as "the gift of God".

Not to say you would do this, but just to say that "the gift of God" needs to always be first and foremost taught as "eternal life" and the ingredients, even though revealed in seperate passages, should not be presented as somehow seperated from the fullness of the eternal life itself. Not sure that makes sense, but I have to go, you know what I mean by now.:wavey:

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Fact; Living Water is the Holy Spirit.

Fact; Living Water is Everlasting Life.

Fact; Living Water as described for us in chapters 4 and 7 was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification.

In light of John 7:38-39 would we not have to conclude that those who died in faith had to wait in Paradise until Jesus was crucified, ressurrected and glorified before they too recieved the promised Living Water/Holy Spirit of Everlasting Life?

Yes they were "saved", guaranteed the promise of Everlasting Life, but did they receive the actual Living Water/Holy Spirit

Then Later Steaver said

OK I believe I see an assumption that I need to clear up. My OP does not suggest that the Holy Spirit did not exist in the OT. I think were you misunderstand is that the Holy Spirit has many functions throughout His eternal existence. In the OT the Spirit came upon men and walked with men, even entered into men

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1088288&postcount=11

Hmm so "Not given yet" you admit does not mean

Was not present on earth - working with mankind and even IN mankind!

That seems like a big step Steaver.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What is being addressed in the OP is the "Living Water/Rebirth" that is defined in John 4 & 7. This is were the Holy Spirit actually indwells the believer as Everlasting Life.

Indeed - as we see it discussed in John 3

As pertaining to "born again" Christ argues that the New Birth teaching of the OT is well known to OT Bible teachers PRE-Cross!

This is clear since as Heb 4 states "the GOSPEL was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also"

But getting back to Christ's argument for the pre-cross OT understanding of the New Birth --


John 3:9-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

King James Version (KJV)
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?' 10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!


Darby Translation (DARBY)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!


Hence we see "insight" into the teaching of the "NEW HEART" that is "CREATED" in the New Birth teaching of the OT in Ps 51 and referenced by Jeremiah as well as Heb 8. "CREATE in me a CLEAN heart and renew a right SPIRIT within me - take not Thy Holy Spirit FROM me"...

Aparently OT Bible teachers were reading Ps 51 -- hmmm imagine that!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is only ONE Gospel "Gal 1:6-11"

And NO foundation OTHER than Christ is even possible (1Cor 3)

1 Corinthians 10


1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]


In John 20 - once again they receive the Holy Spirit

Steaver
Here again, yes they were drinking real liquid water and eating real solid food

The Gospel only works one way. No way for the sinful depraved nature to serve or follow God WITHOUT being born-again. It does not do that on it's own according to Romans 3.

The Gospel only works ONE way.

While it is good to admit that Israel "at real food" -- I don't see that as the point of 1Cor 10.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 1 once again Christ tells them to WAIT for the promised blessing of the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to over-extend scripture so that each time they are given the promise of the Holy Spirit all the PREVIOUS instances are deleted - you are not dealing faithfully with scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Steaver said
As you clearly point out, Jesus gave the disciples the Living Water/Holy Spirit after His glorification. So does He need to give it to them again? Of course not. What they are to wait for is not the "Living Water/Eternal Life/Holy Spirit Gift" but they are to await the Holy Spirit/Power.

Agreed.

The fact that they are waiting for the H.S in Acts 1 does not mean they did not already have the H.S working at a different leve.

in fact we see John's disciples asking POST cross if the Holy Spirit existed.

Steaver
Again, the Holy Spirit has many tasks, this is were one needs to rightly divide those works spoken of throughout scripture. Things are not to be just all lumped together as one in the same. There are many blessings of the Holy Spirit and differing works.

Agreed - the future work of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 1 is said by Christ to be the "gift promised" during His ministry.


Acts 1
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, ""Which,'' He said, ""you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.''
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ""Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''
7 He said to them, ""It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Brother BobRyan,

Do you realize that your model view of the Living Water/Holy Spirit spoken of in John 4 & 7 has the disciples getting reborn three times?

You conclude they have received the Living Water/Holy Spirit for believing in Jesus pre-cross.

You conclude they have again received the Living Water/Holy Spirit post-cross in John 20:22.

You conclude that they receive the Living Water/Holy Spirit a third time at Pentecost.

God Bless! :thumbsup:

Jesus never argues "you are not yet converted" or "you are still lost - not born again - still in your sins" to his disciples.

When Jesus sends them out in Matt 10 - he sends them as His witnesses - his messengers about the kingdom of God - and he refuses the pretense of Nicodemus that he does not know what the new birth is or the role of the holy
Spirit in accomplishing it or the fact that all who would go to heaven must have it.

in john 6 Peter says to Christ "you HAVE the WORDS of eternal life".

They are not "born-again three times" because the first time is all that was needed. The other additional gifts of the Holy Spirit - were in "addition".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Hmm so "Not given yet" you admit does not mean

Was not present on earth - working with mankind and even IN mankind!

That seems like a big step Steaver.

in Christ,

Bob

Never denied this.

Being IN mankind for a given moment or period of time for the purpose of God's revelation would not be the same as being IN a man AND quickening the man's spirit to life (born-again) creating a new creature in Christ because the man called on Jesus by faith to be saved from himself and to receive eternal life/living water/Holy Spirit.

Was the donkey "born-again" just because the Holy Spirit entered into it to reveal a message?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....

The fact that they are waiting for the H.S in Acts 1 does not mean they did not already have the H.S working at a different level.

in fact we see John's disciples asking POST cross if the Holy Spirit existed.

This is my whole point "working out different functions" throughout history.

They are not "born-again three times" because the first time is all that was needed. The other additional gifts of the Holy Spirit - were in "addition".

in Christ,

Bob

Now we are getting closer to agreement.

A) We agree the rebirth is receiving the living water function of the Holy Spirit laid out in John 4 & 7.

B) We agree that a person is only born-again once.

C) We agree that the disciples were not born-again three times

D) We agree there are three seperate workings of the Holy Spirit going on in these disciple's lives....

Here is what I contend they are;

1) They were shown by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God and believed. Pre-cross.

2) They received the Holy Spirit by Jesus AFTER He was glorified.

3) They received the Holy Spirit/Power at Pentecost.

Three different works of the Holy Spirit.

First, the draw, revealing the truth, pre-cross. (Matt 16:17) The Holy Spirit showed Peter as well as the other believers convicting them of Truth. No mention of the Living Water/Holy Spirit given as of yet. In fact it could not have been given yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39)

Second, the receiving of Living Water/Holy Spirit AFTER Jesus' glorification. First fullfilled in (John 20)

Third, the receiving of the Holy Spirit/Power given, fullfilled at Pentecost. (Acts 1-2)

I am sure by now you disagree. Then explain what Holy Spirit function was given to the disciples in John 20. If you say it was the same as Acts then why did they need the same thing twice and why wait on that which you were already given? Did Jesus just give them a little bit of the Living Water.

Explain how the donkey having the Holy Spirit in it automatically became born of God.

This all surrounds the "living water" blessing of the Holy Spirit. This "living water" blessing of the Holy Spirit is outlined as the rebirth (Jhn 3,4,7). This "living water" blessing of the Holy Spirit was not yet given until Jesus was glorified.

You agree that the Holy Spirit has many functions and performs differing duties. Living water is specifically reserved for post-glorification blessings according to the clear-cut truth of John 7:39.

Your only choice is to abandon the thought that the rebirth includes this living water and I believe this would be difficult to do without cutting out some scriptures.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Now we are getting closer to agreement.

A) We agree the rebirth is receiving the living water function of the Holy Spirit laid out in John 4 & 7.

B) We agree that a person is only born-again once.

C) We agree that the disciples were not born-again three times

D) We agree there are three seperate workings of the Holy Spirit going on in these disciple's lives....

Here is what I contend they are;

1) They were shown by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God and believed. Pre-cross.

And right there is where we have the fruit of the John 3 drawing of the Holy Spirit that brings about belief, salvation and the New Heart of Psalms 51 andHeb 8.

This is the first work of the Holy Spirit the same Pre-cross and Post cross because it is the only way to resolve the Romans 3 totally depravity problem of the sinful nature so that they can believe.

having that new-birth (John 3) - new-heart (Ps 51) identified pre-cross

2) They received the Holy Spirit by Jesus AFTER He was glorified. John 20

3) They received the Holy Spirit/Power at Pentecost. Acts 1

First, the draw, revealing the truth, pre-cross. (Matt 16:17) The Holy Spirit showed Peter as well as the other believers convicting them of Truth.

Agreed.

And then the Living Waters of Is 55 and the New Heart of Psalms 51 and Jer 31.

This pre-cross work of the Holy Spirit was and still is essential according to the pre-cross doctrine of Christ John 3 for which all OT scholars were accountable.

It is the only solution to the Romans 3 issue of depravity.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

]

Being IN mankind for a given moment or period of time for the purpose of God's revelation would not be the same as being IN a man AND quickening the man's spirit to life (born-again) creating a new creature in Christ because the man called on Jesus by faith to be saved from himself and to receive eternal life/living water/Holy Spirit.

God Bless! :thumbs:

The "problem" with your view is two fold.

#1. the sinful "old nature" has no way to "become a believer" apart from the New Birth. Christ confirms this as fact pre-Cross known to all OT Bible scholars.

#2. The John 7 text does not say "the Holy Spirit was IN the people but could not stay for any length of time once in someone".

 

[steaver]

#2. The John 7 text does not say "the Holy Spirit was IN the people but could not stay for any length of time once in someone".

but here is the problem brother, John 7:38-39 is specific and says the "living water" was not yet given.

If receiving the "living water" equates to being "born-again" then "born-again" did not occur for anyone until after Jesus' glorification as the scripture declares in John 7.

Is being born-again receiving the living water or not? If it is, there is no way around John 7 in that it was not yet given.

Hey, you didn't answer; Was the donkey born-again because the Holy Spirit entered it?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

#1. the sinful "old nature" has no way to "become a believer" apart from the New Birth. Christ confirms this as fact pre-Cross known to all OT Bible scholars.

That is a which came first, the chicken or the egg argument. I do not believe that one must have a new birth to become a believer. I believe when one believes or accepts the testimony of Jesus Christ (the gospel), one calls on the Lord and then receives the rebirth. This is why Jesus said "ask" for the "living water".

Second, I reject your opinion of "Christ confirms this as fact pre-Cross known to all OT Bible scholars".

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Hey, you didn't answer; Was the donkey born-again because the Holy Spirit entered it?

God Bless! :thumbs:

God Bless! :wavey: