Born Again-Regeneration-Living Water-Holy Spirit

[BobRyan]

but here is the problem brother, John 7:38-39 is specific and says the "living water" was not yet given.

If receiving the "living water" equates to being "born-again" then "born-again" did not occur for anyone until after Jesus' glorification as the scripture declares in John 7.

Is being born-again receiving the living water or not? If it is, there is no way around John 7 in that it was not yet given.

John 7 does not argue that no one was born again - it argues that the gift of the Holy Spirit "That Christ said He PROMISED" was not given until Acts 1.

Acts 1
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, ""Which,'' He said, ""you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.''
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ""Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''
7 He said to them, ""It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''


This is THE Holy Spirit event we SEE happening in scripture AFTER Christ is glorified - taken to heaven after his resurrection.

John 7
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified

It points us to that special Biblical Holy Spirit EVENT that we SEE in Acts 1 AFTer Christ is glorified. And at the Acts 2 EVENT in the upper room NNE is "born again" rather they are filled with the Pentecostal power of the Holy Spirit.

Hey, you didn't answer; Was the donkey born-again because the Holy Spirit entered it?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Is that argument to deny that the Spirit enters at the new Birth or causes the New Birth OR are you trying to pretend that John 3 does not exist again?

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....

John 7 does not argue that no one was born again - it argues that the gift of the Holy Spirit "That Christ said He PROMISED" was not given until Acts 1.

And I asked......"Is being born-again receiving the living water or not?

Just say "yes" or "no" please.

Is that argument to deny that the Spirit enters at the new Birth or causes the New Birth OR are you trying to pretend that John 3 does not exist again?

I believe you just saw your folly in equating OT enterings of the Holy Spirit with the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit NT (post glorification of Jesus).

This is why you couldn't answer yes or no, but chose to divert.:thumbs:

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

When scripture shows us the New Birth in Ps 51 and Isaiah 55 we can believe it. For even Christ said that this work was "according to what was proclaimed in scripture".

Some people don't like to see some parts of scripture quoted... I think we all get that.

But as it turns out the Gospel ONLY works ONE way and there has only EVER been ONE Gospel in all of time. Gal 1:6-11 -- yet many "imagine two"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And I asked......"Is being born-again receiving the living water or not?

Just say "yes" or "no" please.

There is NO such text as "to be born again you must receive the water".

But there IS John 3 telling us that the new birth is OT Gospel teaching known to OT Bible scholars.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
As pertaining to "born again" Christ argues that the New Birth teaching of the OT is well known to OT Bible teachers PRE-Cross!

This is clear since as Heb 4 states "the GOSPEL was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also"

But getting back to Christ's argument for the pre-cross OT understanding of the New Birth --


John 3:9-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

King James Version (KJV)
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?' 10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!


Darby Translation (DARBY)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!


Hence we see "insight" into the teaching of the "NEW HEART" that is "CREATED" in the New Birth teaching of the OT in Ps 51 and referenced by Jeremiah as well as Heb 8. "CREATE in me a CLEAN heart and renew a right SPIRIT within me - take not Thy Holy Spirit FROM me"...

Aparently OT Bible teachers were reading Ps 51 -- hmmm imagine that!

 

[steaver]

When scripture shows us the New Birth in Ps 51 and Isaiah 55 we can believe it. For even Christ said that this work was "according to what was proclaimed in scripture".

Some people don't like to see some parts of scripture quoted... I think we all get that.

Amen!

In Isaiah 53 we also see the death of Christ foretold. It was not yet actually carried out, but it was prophecy of things to come. The OT saints looked forward to the day of redemption and faith in God's promisses of this salvation is what saved them. David also looked forward to the day when God would create within himself a new heart, one that was not always straying away and forgetting about his God and God's word.

Isaiah 51 is a perfect example that the rebirth was yet to come. This is David's prayer to God concerning his sins of adultery and murder. If this would be an example of David receiving the new birth at this time that would mean David had never received the new birth (something you, not I, claim he would have) as of yet since no one gets born-again twice. This creates a delima for your position. You would have to say that David wasn't born again prior to his sins with Bathsheba if you want Isaiah 51 to be David receiving the rebirth after his sins and at the time he prayed this prayer and wrote the scripture.

Properly studied we see OT scriptures of prophecy concerning the re-birth to come. This is what Nicodemus should have concluded when Jesus explained things to him, however to Nicodemus' defense, terms like "born-again" and "kingdom of God" were not written in the OT. But regardless, Nicodemus should have believed Jesus and asked Jesus to show him more rather than protesting what Jesus was teaching him.

Remember, Nicodemus told Jesus "we know that thou art a teacher come from God" but when truth be told he was just giving lip service because if Nicodemus really believed this when he said it he would believe Jesus' teaching concerning the rebirth. Jesus could have unlocked the OT scriptures for him further but He knew Nicodemus' motives were not pure so He scolded him for being a teacher of Israel and not knowing such things.

Good scriptures brother :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said

Darby Translation (DARBY)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!


Hence we see "insight" into the teaching of the "NEW HEART" that is "CREATED" in the New Birth teaching of the OT in Ps 51 and referenced by Jeremiah as well as Heb 8. "CREATE in me a CLEAN heart and renew a right SPIRIT within me - take not Thy Holy Spirit FROM me"...

Aparently OT Bible teachers were reading Ps 51 -- hmmm imagine that!

Amen!

Well now - we agree on something at last!

ahhh - but then you "change subject and context entirely" in a strrrrrretch that is truly entertaining.

Steaver

In Isaiah 53 we also see the death of Christ foretold. It was not yet actually carried out, but it was prophecy of things to come. The OT saints looked forward

While it is true that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of future events - Ps 51 and Isaiah 55 are not.

(And of course this still leaves you avoiding John 3 as usual).

Back to the point - the work of the Holy Spirit can easily be seen here to be REAL and living in the OT just as Christ claimed all OT teachers should know in John 3. PRE-Cross.

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David “realtime” just as He does with us today
Ps 51
9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.



Is 55:1-3 Message to Isaiah’s readers -- “come to the Water and Drink” –

Isaiah 55
1 ""Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 ""Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 "" Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.





1Cor 10 – they all drank of the same spiritual drink
1 Corinthians 10


1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

 

[steaver]

There is NO such text as "to be born again you must receive the water".

But there IS John 3 telling us that the new birth is OT Gospel teaching known to OT Bible scholars.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually if it was a snake it would have bitten you!

Right in John 3 it tells us about receiving the Spirit, Being born-again is having one's spirit quickened by the Holy Spirit. We don't need to read to much further (John 4) and Jesus explains this a little broader when He teaches the woman at the well that this Spirit indwellment is "living water". Later John explains that this "living water" is the Holy Spirit (John 7).

This isn't that difficult to understand. John made sure we understood that the "living water" was the Holy Spirit. ANd Jesus made it clear to the woman that this "living water" was "everlasting life".

This is all one teaching from John 3 thru John 7 and is all about entering into the "kingdom of God". Believe on Jesus Christ and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit/Everlasting life/Gift of God/Spirit of Christ/Comforter. HOWEVER, John makes it clear that these rebirths would not happen until Jesus was glorified.

I really don't see the contention you raise against the simple reading of the texts. The only reason I can think of for you to object to the rebirth being a new thing done after Jesus' glorification is that it would take away all of your OT scriptures that you think shows one can lose their salvation. I don't see any other resaon to ignore the obvious.

You love to say "one gospel" from the beggining to the end and I say Amen! By grace ye are saved through faith! Accepting the rebirth as a NT act of God does not take away from the "one gospel" truth of scripture. God has chosen to do a new thing and a new work in His flock. It is a wonderful thing and the perfectness of it causing OSAS brings glory to Jesus Christ for only He is worthy to give and to secure one's salvation via the "Living Water" !!!!!!! Praise Him!!!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Actually my "Amen" was (edit...whoops, I meant was NOT) to Darby.

While it is true that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of future events - Ps 51 and Isaiah 55 are not.

Slow down and read what I write....

(Steaver).....Isaiah 51 is a perfect example that the rebirth was yet to come. This is David's prayer to God concerning his sins of adultery and murder. If this would be an example of David receiving the new birth at this time that would mean David had never received the new birth (something you, not I, claim he would have) as of yet since no one gets born-again twice. This creates a delima for your position. You would have to say that David wasn't born again prior to his sins with Bathsheba if you want Isaiah 51 to be David receiving the rebirth after his sins and at the time he prayed this prayer and wrote the scripture.

 

[steaver]

Is 55:1-3 Message to Isaiah’s readers -- “come to the Water and Drink” –

Isaiah 55
1 ""Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 ""Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 "" Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.

It is prophecy brother! Have faith and ye shall receive IN GOD"S TIMING!

Most of the Psalms and Isaiah are either things that has happened or things to come..........prophecy!

Rightly Divide.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Actually if it was a snake it would have bitten you!

Right in John 3 it tells us about receiving the Spirit, Being born-again is having one's spirit quickened by the Holy Spirit.

Agreed from the start on that one.

We don't need to read to much further (John 4) and Jesus explains this a little broader when He teaches the woman at the well that this Spirit indwellment is "living water".

I do not find him saying in John 4 that the "Holy Spirit is living water" - and I don't find him saying "someday in the future a timewill come when I will give you living water" in John 4.

Later John explains that this "living water" is the Holy Spirit (John 7).

I agree that your point is made in John 7. Combined with John 4 it looks pretty good.

But in Acts 1 it is pretty clear that the "promised Holy Spirit" is in fact the Pentecostal outpouring -- these are people who ALREADY believe and are ALREADY born again in Acts 1.

But the PROMISE of John 7 that is FUTURE is claimed in Acts 1 as pointing specifically to the Spiritual Gifts NOT salvation, NOT the being born again.

And that is where your argument is flawed.

The Basics of Salvation are seen to be fully effective in John 3 and in Heb 11 for OT saints -- causing both the NEW Birth and the "WATERS being drunk" in Is 66 and 1Cor 10 for OT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The Basics of Salvation are seen to be fully effective in John 3 and in Heb 11 for OT saints -- causing both the NEW Birth and the "WATERS being drunk" in Is 66 and 1Cor 10 for OT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, if you want to equate Hebrews 11's testimony of faith with the actual prophecy of obtaining of a rebirth in John 3 you have some splain'in to do for the conclusion of Hebrews 11 is.........

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

#1 there is no "rebirth" spoken of in Hebrews 11.

#2 if you do want to equate "faith" with a "rebirth" in Hebrews 11..."these all...received not the promise".

What promise did they "not receive yet"?

Would it be eternal life through the finished work of Jesus Christ?

The life (living water) we now receive immediately upon faith in Christ because Jesus has finished His work and has been glorified?

Think about it.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, if you want to equate Hebrews 11's testimony of faith with the actual prophecy of obtaining of a rebirth in John 3 you have some splain'in to do for the conclusion of Hebrews 11 is.........

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Enoch is in heaven - even by Heb 11 standards.

Elijah is in heaven even pre-cross.

Too late to pretend that these are not called "giants of faith" in Heb 11 who were fully accepted by God according to Heb 11.

Furthermore they are held up as examples EVEN to the NT saints in Heb 11!!

Not only that but Heb 11 ends speaking of "what was promised" since in Romans 4 AND in Heb 11 we are told that it is the NEW Earth that is the ultimate promise for the saints just as Christ stated in Matt 5.

So even those these born-again saints were taken directly to heaven without even dying - they did not get the New Earth that Christ said the saints were to inherit.

Not until after the literal 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Would it be eternal life through the finished work of Jesus Christ?

The life (living water) we now receive immediately upon faith in Christ because Jesus has finished His work and has been glorified?

Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit can easily be seen here to be REAL and living in the OT just as Christ claimed all OT teachers should know in John 3. PRE-Cross.

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David “realtime” just as He does with us today
Ps 51
9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.



Is 55:1-3 Message to Isaiah’s readers -- “come to the Water and Drink” –

Isaiah 55
1 ""Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 ""Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 "" Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.





1Cor 10 – they all drank of the same spiritual drink
1 Corinthians 10


1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

 

[BobRyan]

It is prophecy brother! Have faith and ye shall receive IN GOD"S TIMING!

Most of the Psalms and Isaiah are either things that has happened or things to come..........prophecy!

Rightly Divide.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Ps 51 is seen to be literal are realtime in DAVID's day. No possibility of spinning it any other way.

Isaiah 55 was the message Isaiah gave TO the saints of HIS day calling THEM to the water - to drink!

No possibility of spinning it any other way.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Ps 51 is seen to be literal are realtime in DAVID's day. No possibility of spinning it any other way.

Then I will ask you again because you never answered. Was David not a born again saint before his sins with Bathsheba?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

What does the writer mean by this Bob?

"God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." (Heb 11:40)

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

As you have already stated - the Holy Spirit WAS present in the OT and you have even admitted that he came in to people. So the John 7 text can not mean that he was not there or was not doing ministry to enter into people Pre-cross even by your own definition.

But in Acts 1 we see "the future promise of the Holy Spirit" clearly defined --


4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, ""Which,'' He said, ""you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.''
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ""Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''
7 He said to them, ""It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 11 points out two things --

it tells us why the OT saints are not in heaven now - why we all wait for the rapture and resurrection of the saints "to be WITH Christ".

And it also tells us that the ultimate Rom 4 and Heb 11 "promise" of a new earth (Matt 5 as well) is realized for both groups at the same time after the Millennium.

But even in that context - Enoch went to heaven pre-flood
Elijah went to heaven post-flood

And all the saints in Heb 11 are held up before all NT saints as OUR EXAMPLES in living the born-again life with Christ


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Then I will ask you again because you never answered. Was David not a born again saint before his sins with Bathsheba?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Yes he was.

But i never claimed to believe the man-made tradition OSAS in OT or NT. It is denied in Ezek 18, in Matt 18, in John 15, in Romans 11 ...