"born again" revisited

Psa 40:28,

I appreciate your determination to get to the bottom of an opposing belief. I hope I am worthy of the task you set before us.

The first point I would make is John 1:13 (KJV) -- "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The passage describes 3 ways that are NOT effecacious: 1) not by birth into the right family, 2) not by the will of your own FLESH (clearly the flesh is disposed to the "world," not the "word"), 3) nor by the will of other men (think of the Spaniards who, in conquoring the "new world" "converted" the Indians).

Yes, #2 disallows our flesh from choosing. It does NOT disallow our spirit from choosing. Nor does that the rebirth is of God disallow our spiritual choosing. You see, God doesn't give us rebirth (the indwelling Holy Spirit) until we are "dead" in Christ which is the decision we DO spiritually make first. Remember what baptism signifies? So God can't "give" us death but He can give us "new life in Christ."

Think about it -- by whose power and choice did Christ die? Himself, right? "No man taketh My life but I lay it down..." That is what YOU have to do and then God will give you new life.

BTW, not sure what Bible uses the terms "human decision" but it sounds like a Bible "with an agenda." Personally, I've never seen those words in that scripture.

skypair

 

Baptized by Holy spirit

You do not have to be born again to believe or to trust in God through Jesus Christ.

There is many who believed not being born again.

We believe and trust in Him as a child, then wait on God to baptize us with the Fire and the Holy Spirit.

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 19:1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after ] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[Or in ] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages ] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

 

As long as we are pointing out the words not found in scripture (particularly, this verse), please add....

The word "other" is not in the text. The "will of man" does not cause someone to be born again. And....

Please note the text doesn't say they were born by "our spirit choosing". The text says they were born of God.

I agree that someone has an agenda that keeps them from seeing and believing the plain words of scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

Looks like Isaiah 40:28 beat me to it.

peace to youraying:

 

I believe you are misconstruing my thought. Yes, Jesus came in the flesh. But the flesh is exactly the part that does not save us unless we could live a perfect life like Jesus did. And that is exactly the part of us that the verse says DOES NOT will to be saved. Our flesh neither wants to live a perfect life nor can it.

The verse is silent about the will of our "spirit." Yet that IS the part of us that can will to be saved.

That was a bit of interpretation. "Nor of the will of man" -- "nor of the will of other men." It looks to the fact that we can't be saved by the will of our family ("blood") nor any other outside will (our pastor, say). Personally, our own flesh cannot save us. It is only by the will of God but we must do that will -- believing and receiving (1:11) -- in order to be saved. I believe that the gospel teaches we must believe -- not just be "elect" of God's will -- in order to be saved. You can think you are "elect" all day and all night but if you don't "believe and receive," you're lost, right?

IOW, that it is "God's will" does not exempt one from believing and RECEIVING, does it? We can ALWAYS know it is God's will for us, "on our own" and without any doubts, to believe and receive. He is "NOT willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance," right?

This brings up a good point. You see, the Jews thought it was by the "will of the flesh" -- by keeping the commandments -- that they were saved, right? John is here pointing out that salvation has nothing to do with the "motions of the flesh" which you also believe, right? Perhaps you have given an even more satisfactory answer than I did regarding "will of the flesh." :jesus:

skypair

 

One problem is your presumption that being born-again or regeneration is 'before' salvation and secondly your taking the NIV as being properly translated here. I would honestly say get a better translation, almost anything is better (IMO) than the NIV for study.

Just look at verse 12 for your answer.
"Yet to all who received him, (1) to those who believed in his name, (2) he gave the right to become children of God"
Do you see an order here? The text even reiterates this is done (becoming a child of God) because they 'beleived on His name".

Notice they must first believe BEFORE they are given the right to become His children. Yet they do not make themselves His children, but simply believe Him. God is the one who makes them 'born-again' but it is after they have believed.

I will use the NASB since the NIV is not (IMO) a very good translation regarding many passages (including this one). I don't mind most others either.

Thus when a man believes, it is God who makes man to be born-again (regenerate) because man can not do so of or by himself. He can not do so by any of his own means such as through a bloodlineage, good deeds, nor of shear determination. All these are attempts at doing something through mans strengths of which the bible consistantly calls 'works'. Yet, 'belief' is not a 'work' (Rom 4:3-6)

Being born again IS salvation because to be regenerate is to be alive and scripture states we are only alive IN Chrst. We can only be IN Christ if we have been cleansed from all sin (justified) and so we are sanctified. Being sanctified is done through the indwelling of the Holy Spirt and is also what makes us to be IN Christ. Therefore because NONE of these thing transpire without faith first we know that this is why regeneration is at salvation and not before. Notice that vs 13 explains what vs 12 is speaking to with regard to 'becoming children of God' and not about them believing. In conclusion it is apparent according to scripture that - 'they believed' (first) to which God (then) gave them the right to become children (born-agian). And yet no one believes who has not been ordained to eternal life

 

amen to that

 

Allan,

Thanks for coming to the rescue! :laugh: I knew I shoulda got that formal education in theology instead of accounting!

skypair

 

Hello brother. Long time no see.
Seems we have been here before huh?
Is belief an exercise of the will?

 

Allan,

First off, excellent post, my friend. Your argument is well-thought and easy to understand (as we have come to expect from you!). And, if it were not for the rest of the New Testament, you would have easily persuaded me to agree with you.

Your excellent post, it would seem to me, does not take into account other passages of Scripture where we are told (because of sin) we do not or cannot seek God (ie. Romans 3)

The proverbial "Sticky-Wicket" here is this: Other parts of the New Testament show what you are saying arguing for must be brought about by something other than man's will.

Certainly we must believe, certainly we must actively accept Christ (Calvinists believe this, despite Skypair's best efforts to mis-characterize us). However, how we get to that point, is not something we can do--according to other areas of scripture.

By the way, I agree with your assessment of the NIV. While it is good for reading, serious study is hindered by its incessant lapses in translating Greek particles. This is why some of my friends and I call it the "Nearly Inspired Version." No offense to you NIV people....just a story!

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Then how about the many Scriptures telling man to do just that (seek HIm)?

When I see "as it is written"...I go back to the source to put the quote in context. Doing that, Romans 3 cannot be about mankind, but the "fool"...the one who has had the truth and rejected it.

 

It lacks any kind of common sense and reasoning whatsoever to come to the conclusion that God is giving specific commands to man that man cannot keep. That is the calvinistic presupposition that is NEEDED to interpret those passages. The burden of proof is on the calvinist to prove that when God tells man to do something, He has not given that man what is needed to obey His specific commands.

That's a leap in logic. You have taken a passage of Scripture speaking of sanctification, and morphed it into a quasi-justification model. The "natural man" in Scripture is used to speak of the sin nature and man subject to is, not the unregenerate. Scripture plainly teaches that those lost EXCHANGED the truth for a lie.

 

Hi Web!

Paul certainly has the context correct. The "source" passage, in its entirety, says:

Psalm 14
14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, [1]
who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would shame the plans of the poor,
but [2] the Lord is his refuge.
7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Certainly, verse 2 shows this to be a universal condemnation, not limited to the "fool." Contextually, this Psalm indicates, to some extent, all mankind is foolish in that there is none who seeks God and there is none who does good.

So, Paul uses this which fits his context perfectly.

Blessings,

The Archangel