breaking trust

[Allan]

John[/BAllan, no animals and humans could not speak to each other as you are thinking of at any time. That would require a physiology and mental capacity they simply don't have and weren't created with. They cannot imagine and they do not communicate symbolically -- both these things are necessary regarding our languages.

Wow, a person who is old enough to KNOW what man and animals could do in the garden! :laugh: j/k. Uh, though - you do need to know (as I stated) the bible refutes you TWICE where God used animals to speak. We also know that animals communicate vocally with each other (as well as bodily), establishing a mental compasity far beyond your concept but maintians the biblical possibility I presented. You can not prove there was no communcative ability between man and animal. Besides the very name "serpent" implies speach for which it is named.

Whether or not Satan was the covering, or guardian, angel of Eden, he certainly did not fall before the creation week was finished. For God declared all creation 'very good' and that would not include a rebellion which involved 1/3 of the angelic beings!

If you will note God's work concerning creation and His statement concerned THIS world and Gods pleasure with ITS completeness of the physical relm (that is what the 2 chapters were dealing right??). I also did not state that He fell BEFORE creation week but at the very least implied it would have been during the creation week he walked in Eden and fell just becore the creation of man.
We can not give angels just any title or authority we want based on presuppositions. Satan was not the 'gaurdian' or 'covering' angel of Eden. Scripture ONLY states he walked in Eden and nothing more. He was the covering angel in the Holy Mountain of God. Scripture says it and that it that.

Eve was not stupid.

I agree! Adam and & Eve were the most intellectual people on the Planet despite the fact they were the ONLY people on the planet at that time.

We tend to think of early man in evolutionary terms, as being brutish.

We who?? Careful speaking on behalf of all christains since you will at least half of the behalf will take their 'half' with them and leave you and you other half to be. :laugh:

But biblically, and historically, although we have gotten pretty good technologically, the truth is the opposite -- the first man and woman were extraordinary and we have been steadily degenerating ever since. Eve trusted that serpent for a reason, in other words. She was not simply enamored of a talking beast.

True in all. Scripture stated the serpent was the most cunning (not coniving but cautious) of all the beast of the field. This is as important as what the name serpent means. Eve KNEW this creature was KNOWN for being cautious and it spoke with her about the tree of which it was stating there was no reason to be cautious of it.

We do know that there are guardian angels, not just for individuals, but at least for Israel as well.

True.

The name Lucifer means 'carrier of light', and light is, spiritually, always a euphemism for understanding in the Bible and in many current cultures as well, including ours, as in "Do you see the light on that issue now?"

That is simply and commonly know fact any student of the scriptures or history of which I am both.

When we put all this together, it is at least a strong possibility that Lucifer was the guardian cherub of Eden, the crown of God's creation at that point, and had access both to the throne of God and earth (as he still had in the book of Job and will have until he is finally cast out of heaven in the last days).

Only when you want to read something into the text that is not there (presupposition for your theory) but the scritpures specifically state to the contrary of your opinion. Scripture NEVER calls him the cherub of Eden but establishes the FACT that he was the covering angel on the Holy Mount of God as says the scripture so it was. Your contention via your own verses speak to the contrary of the position you are taking. His position (as I showed before) is correlary to the the Cherubs 'COVERING' the mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant and those in Heaven 'COVERING' the throne of God. It is no coincidence that Cherubs are all found around the throne because it is where they ARE.

Thus, yes, he certainly has walked among the fiery stones, although I am honestly not sure what that refers to. It was, if this is true, his responsibility to help man and woman gain insight and understanding.

Most scholars and commentaters are not sure either though most say it is a reference to the alter before the Lord in Heaven. (like the one Isaiah got to be purged by being touch upon his lips with a live coal from it). Now you are presuming something that is not even alluded to in scripture. He ONLY walked in the Garden...that is all scriptures says concerning it and him. Not ever does it insinuate that Lucifer was the bringing of knowledge to man. Man was in fellowship with God and God was there every evening walking with man. If you will NOTE, 'walking' is something (spiritually speaking) that is a euphamism for fellowship and intimacy. Man did not walk with angels nor where they taught by angels...this is something you have brought into the text and and never substantiated vai the scriptures.

When he betrayed that trust, we can see biblically that the Holy Spirit Himself takes over that job for those who believe.

God was always the one doing it. He never had to 'take over as you erroniously conclude through conjecture and NOT scripture. You are going so far off course you are scaring me - in light of your usually thoughtful insights and discussions. Nothing in scripture warrents your view point other than a trust was broken. Beyond that you, you have been adding things that are not corrolary and contextual to the passages of scripture you cite for your presuppositions.

When he betrayed that trust, Eve would have had no way of knowing, but simply communed with him, in whatever form, as she may have done before.

Again, this is purely imagination working. You have no biblical evedence to state she EVER communed with Lucifer much less with him in differing 'forms'??
You have gone beyond reaching to stumbling carelessly.

However it happened, to get back to the OP, she evidently trusted him and he betrayed that trust in a way that has reverberated through creation from that time on.

Yes, Eve trusted the serpent and was betrayed.

And what I was thinking yesterday is that he is thus a prototype of all who gain the trust of others and then in a calculated and conscious way, betray that trust.

This is why we need to place everything when bring into our thought life under the scrutiny of Gods word via context and consistancy throughout scripture. There was NO 'gaining of trust' at some point, with the intent to break that trust at another. There was always trust for there was no reason not to trust.

Although we have been discussing the happening in the garden, that was not my primary thought here.

Yes, but it is where you thought derived from and is why it is going all over creation and back.

I was thinking of how people betray one another as an animal could never do.

That is misinformation. Animals do this all the time. Dogs, snakes, horses and exotic animals as well if not more so (tiger, bears, ext...). The trust they will not harm you or endanger you. There are differing reasons they DO break that trust but the excuse does not dismiss the fact they broke the trust. I can tell you I would not raise my children with a Rednosed Pit (I raised them and know they turn on you at a moments notice) Animals even betray each other. Just watch animal planet. :laugh: But suffice to say, if animals do not betray trust then why is animal (the serpent) judged by God??

We have this capacity for evil that does not exist anywhere else in the physical creation. And some people seem to exploit it to the full. Are these people, who do this to others, actually (whether they conciously know it or not) following Satan?

Agreed. Our capacity goes beyond anything found in the corruptness of nature because we were created to subdue Gods creation and therefore our capacity MUST be greater that its.
I do agree that those people who do this in a willful manner just as all people who are lost in their sins are simply following satan their father - at least till the adoption from one family to another.

 

[Allan]

Amy, I think we are more easily deceived. Women tend to be more relationship-oriented than men. Watch a newborn baby during its first few months. The little girls will focus on human faces and the little boys on moving objects. We are hard-wired differently. This is one basic reason why God has told us a woman should not usurp authority over a man.

Well put and well said.

 

[skypair]

Helen

I don't know if this helps but...

I've heard that the serpent appeared to Eve as a shining being -- that like Adam and Eve, Satan had the appearance of having come from the presence of God. Recall, Adam and Eve did not know they were maked on account of they shone too -- like Jesus, Moses, and Elijah on the Mt of transfiguration, remember?

Anyway, Eve was bound to "hear out" another "shining" creature but she was not equipped (I don't think Adam told her enough about the rules) to discern the lie. Go back and look at it -- Adam was told about the forbidden fruit before Eve was created.

And, of course, this is what happens among mankind now, isn't it? We don't get the whole truth, do we? We MUST go to the source -- scripture -- as test whatever we hear. Which resolves your other problem, I hope.

skypair

 

[Scarlett O.]

Well put and well said.

The bible does say that women are easily deceived (less intelligent?) But it doesn't say that our being less intelligent than men is the reason why women are not to ursurp authority. Connecting those two dots would be saying that all women are less intelligent than all men.

 

[Helen]

skypair, excellent point! We have thought that the 'un-nakedness' of Adam and Eve before the fall was probably because they were clothed with the Shekinah Glory, at least in reflection, from walking with God in the Garden. The fact that Satan could have appeared as a shining being then is a very good possibility. We are told that he appears as an angel of light...

Recall, also, that when Moses was with God on Mt. Sinai, that he had to cover his face when he came down from the mountain because it was shining.

And yes, we must consistently go back to Scripture for the truth. It is too bad not many Christians actually read the Scriptures...

Scarlett, the fact that women are deceived has nothing to do with intelligence at all. It has to do with the fact that, intelligent or stupid as individuals (and we run the gamut just as men do), we are hardwired more toward relationships and men toward 'things.' Little girls are 'born mothers' in the sense that they can keep track of several different things at once. Boys tend to have much more concentrated, focused attentions. (Yes, of course there are exceptions.) We are just different. Perhaps this doesn't have anything to do with a woman not usurping authority, but I think the whole package goes together.

I have a very high IQ. I am intelligent. I am also easily deceived by others. If I were to grab authority, or attempt to, from my husband or my pastor, then the person who would be in authority (me) would be someone easily deceived. Not a good idea....

 

[Helen]

Allan, God using animals to speak twice in the Bible is considered a miracle both times, not a standard thing animals can do.

Animals communicate, but the do not do so in the way humans do. They have communication, not language.

And I disagree with you about Lucifer and his relationship to the Garden of Eden, but that doesn't really matter. We could both be wrong. That is something we can find out later, certainly.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Can I hijack the thread for just one moment and promise not to do it again? :saint:

What does easily deceived mean? I was always taught that it meant not as capable to make decisions based on....well, intelligence.

I have never believed that, but I know the bible doesn't lie and I accepted that what's the majority believed and maybe that's why I have a chip on my shoulder sometimes when it comes to bible verses about women and wives.

What do you think it means, Helen? I would be very interested in your commentary and won't reply except to say a humble thanks in advance.

 

[Helen]

It's a good question; I'm starting a new thread for it, OK?

 

[Allan]

Allan, God using animals to speak twice in the Bible is considered a miracle both times, not a standard thing animals can do.

Animals communicate, but the do not do so in the way humans do. They have communication, not language.

And I disagree with you about Lucifer and his relationship to the Garden of Eden, but that doesn't really matter. We could both be wrong. That is something we can find out later, certainly.

See, now I can agree with that! :laugh: I did like however you illuminating the "trust" aspect.