But Judas drank the cup!

Calvinism survives by redefining terms, and misapplying them.

In 1John 2:2 Christ is said to be "The Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" and to emphasize the point "The SAVIOR of the WORLD" 1John 4:14.

But in no case is this an argument for "Atonement complete for the WHOLE WORLD".

So Calivnism seeks to bend one truth - and turn it back on "other truths".

So They are correct when they confirm that THERE ARE LOST people - and yes even JUDAS is among them (John 17:12) the "son of perdition".

They are also correct when they argue that there is no "universal atonement".

They are WRONG when they claim that INSTEAD of the 1John 2:2 "Atoning SACRIFICE" being COMPLETED at the Cross - it is "ALL of Atonement" that is completed there.

So with that twist/ploy they have the minefield established and just waiting for an Arminian to step into an environment where truth has been bent back on itself to form a weapon AGAINST truth!

Arminians should be warned and should not step into the trap of denying the 1John 2:2 fact of the "Atoning Sacrifice completed" and swallowing the Calvinist myth that INSTEAD of that - the "Completed atonement was accomplished prior to the Heb 8-10 High Priestly Work of Christ that is NEEDED in God's Lev 16 model of Atonement"!

By agreeing to the foundation errors of Calvinism that forms the premise for their arguments - Arminians sometimes find themselves tricked into stepping into another error - while debating error.

It can be frustrating to watch.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So what if Judas drank from the cup, many pastors today drink falsely and unworthily from it too! Besides, Judas was an Elect of God! Elected to his role as the betrayer of God the Son. It had to happen, so God elected one for that purpose.

 

But Judas had FREE WILL Wes!! Are you telling me God FORCED Judas to do that? Judas could have stayed true to Jesus couldn't he? You are making God to be unjust if you said He ELECTED Judas to betray Christ.

 

My gracious then God must be unjust in order to satisfy rc, because elect judas to the role of betrayer He did. Can you provide me a scripture where Judas declared Jesus to be the Lord and Master of his life? Jesus Confirms that Judas was "destined to be lost to fulfill the scriptures" in John 17:12. Yes God the son tells us that Judas was destined to be lost! Believe it or not, it is bible!

 

"It" is the "Atoning Sacrifice" that 1John 2:2 says "IT" is. And so "IT" is finished at the cross.

I think Calvinism had hoped to stick something else in there - but it is too late - 1John 2:2 has already been written.

 

Please give me your definition of the word 'propitiation.' </font>[/QUOTE]Whetstone, Do you think that when Jesus died on the cross that salvation took place at that point or does a person first have to beleive?

25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God Romans 3:25

He is a propitiation through FAITH in his blood.

The passover in the old testement is a foreshadow of Christ work on the cross. The blood of the passover lamb only became effective after it was applied to the doorpost. exodus 12:6-22. The death of the lamb did not save anyone unless the blood was applied.
The attonment of Jesus is sufficent for all men but effective only for those who believe.

 

SPOT ON, PhilG, SPOT ON!

Whetstone, You agreed with me on one thing, you really should agree with Scripture on this one! And thank PhilG for bringing it to light!

 

The pagan greeks invented this idea regarding the act of sacrifice to appease a pagan angry diety.

By CONTRAST the Bible teaches that "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" and it teaches us about the ATONING SACRIFICE of atonement 1John 2:2 not the "appeasement of an angry deity".

So by rejecting paganism and accepting God's own view of Atonment "instead" we have the "Atoning Sacrifice" Completed at the cross 1John 2:2 NIV.

But in Calvinism - the pagan greek definition in 1John 2:2 is the "preferred one".

Hence the convoluted and contradictory view of Calvinists that the Atonement teaching of God in Lev 16 (The Day of Atonement) is wrong - and the High Priestly work of Christ (Heb 8-10) started after the cross and described in Lev 16 is "not needed for Atonement".

The Arminian solution is to simply reject paganism and accept scripture instead.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The word – “Propitiation”.

Notice the first and primary definition given --

 

Paganism anyone?

 

He cannot help Himself but He seems to show remorse for sending His loved ones to Hell-He cries His eyes out! Forever.

john.

 

Did I forget to show the Greek pagan meaning of the idea of "proptitiation"???

I could have sworn I SHOWED that.

Did I forget to CONTRAST that with the Bible view of Hilasmos USED IN LEV 16's Day of ATONEMENT???

Did I forget to include the first foremost and primary defintion for the greek concept of Propitiating deities??

Certainly it is very directed at quieting, calming soothing, pacifying those angry deities by sacrifice. Did I fail to point that out?

BY CONTRAST the Bible says "GOD SO LOVED the WORLD that HE gave"

So then - are you still going to go with the pagan idea of appeasement instead??


You said

Well that is one way to louse up the text. Claim that it is God is "satisified with our SINS" AND "Satisified with the sins of the whole world" instead of showing that Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice FOR our sins.!

It is one thing to have payment/sacrifice FOR our sins and it another to be "Satisified WITH our sins"

You have gone far beyond the pagan notion of "appeasement" in this "Satisfied WITH our sins" idea!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The word – “Propitiation”.

Notice the first and primary definition given --

And then notice how the greek pagan idea of appeasement of an angry deity is contrasted with the Bible concept of atonement - "Atoning Sacrifice"!