Bye TULIP, Hi GRACE

I'm not about to part with TULIP for that Arminianized construct .

Timothy George has R-O-S-E-S though .

Radical depravity
Overcoming grace
Sovereign election
Eternal life
Singular redemption

James Boice/Philip Ryken have the unwieldy R-U-P-E-P.

Radical Depravity
Unconditional Election
Particular Redemption
Efficacious Grace
Persevering Grace

 

Grace? She died 20 years ago.

 

Grace never dies, just the whole truth will be known we are saved by grace through faith.

The bible cannot be limited to any acranym, there is so much to learn from scripture to limit it that way and try to fit into something man made.

 

MP was quoting a line from Christmas Vacation...

 

Grace is scripture.

Tulip is not....

BBob,

 

Nah, Grace is my #3 daughter.

 

If by GRACE you mean the content of the OP , no , it is not scriptural . The grace of the Bible , is quite different -- and of course it is scriptural !

T-U-L-I-P is most certainly biblical . It summarizes major planks of Bible doctrine .

 

Let's see...

The only one I have a problem with is the G. That would need more explanation for me to agree.

However, even the TULIPer believes man chooses to reject Christ (although a choice of one thing is never a choice), salvation is indeed granted upon faith, Christ tasting death for everyone and being the propitiation for not only our sins, but for the whole world, as well as being the Savior for all men, especially of those who believe IS unlimited atonement, and Scripture DOES emphatically state we have everlasting life.

Yup, sounds quite biblical to me.

 

Tulip is not scripture either. Please give the verses.

We raise tulips every year and nothing scripture about them.

The Grace of the OP as I understand it, is saving Grace. If so, I indeed do mean the Grace used in the OP.

BBob,

 

It's a movie quote, a joke.

 

BB , you have said that T-U-L-I-P is not scriptural and yet you have "heard it all" when it comes to C vs. A debates . If you really want to impress the Calvinists here I would like for you to show your willingness to fairly portray the other side for a change . Please cite the verses Calvinists typically use to support T-U-l-I-P . Then , you can demonstrate why those passages do not mean what they say .

 

Been there done that, probably more than anyone else on here, it accomplished absolutely nothing as far as influencing the C's.

I said the "word Tulip" is not scripture but that the word Grace is. You want to debate that???

BBob,

 

"The word Trinity is not in the Bible , therefore it's not scriptural ." Surely you would disagree with that kind of thinking wouldn't you ?
Don't get hung-up on the word 'tulip' . I am asking you to define what it means by scriptural authority . Each letter stood for a proposition from the Word of God .You claim to have "been there and done that" so it would be a cinch for you .

Don't demean the Word of God . If you use it correctly why would it be a waste of time to use the Bible in proving ( in your estimation ) that the Doctrine of grace is false -- because that's what lies behind the 5 platforms of T-U-l-I-P after all .

 

It would surprise you probably if I told you there are many people that does not know what you are talking about when you say Tulip, for it is not in the Bible. The word Grace is in there and is familiar to most people.

Listen Rip; you are the John Calvin follower, you define your own religeon, instead of asking others to do it for you!

No comparison at all.

I have heard enough Calvinism to last me a life time, you have to change so many words in scripture before your doctrine will fit to start with. You base your theology on Eph. and Romans and quote it wrong IMO, to make it fit your theology.

BTW, John Calvin was a person that if you crossed him in scripture he made you pay physically. We are not supposed to fight with carnal tools, but with the word of God. He seems to me to have been one mean character. Many of his attributes have been passed down.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev 22:17)


BBob,

 

Acts 13:48 and Acts 13:46

VS 48 - The Calvinist say, "Here is a plain statement that those who believe are those who are sovereignly ordained to believe."
VS 46 - Here we see that salvation is associated with man's response to the gospel. These Jews did not go to Hell because they were not part of the elect but because they refused to believe.

John 6:37 and John 6:40

VS 37 - Again a Calvinist's favorite. Here you find your doctrine of sovereign election and irresistible grace.
VS 40 - Here the "sovereign" will of God is said to be that every sinner who believes on Christ will be saved. Man has a choice in salvation and a great many other verses agree.

John 6:44 and John 12:32

VS 44 - Again, here you would say sovereign election and irresistible grace.
12:32 - Here we see God is drawing all men to Christ.

Faith and Believing are not works.
Eph. 2:8-9
Rom. 4:5
The Bible teaches that Man is:
Morally corrupt (Jer 17:9; Rom 3:10-18)
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1)
Spiritually Blind (1 Cor 2:14)
BUT IT DOES NOT teach that man CANNOT respond to the gospel.

It DOES teach that:
God enables man to respond giving them light (Jn 1:9)
God draws (Jn 12:32)
Convicts them (Jn 16:8)
Is calling them through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14)
Commands them to repent (Acts 17:30)
Believe on Him (Acts 16:31)

I know, "what about Cain?".
God urged Cain not to act on his jealous anger and Cain resisted.

Noah preached for 120yrs about God's will for man but man resisted.

In Matt 23:37, we see the sovereign will of Christ was refused by Israel.

The unsaved of our day... 2 Cor. 4:3-4
Here we see that men are blinded because of their own unbelief and they are lost because they reject the Gospel.
It's Gods sovereign will to save every sinner (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9), but sinners can resist Him. Have you ever been convicted by the Holy Spirit but not done it?

Can you Calvinist explain Paul?
1 - He attempted to win the more (1 Cor. 9:19). How can this been done if the # is already settled?
2 - Paul's goal was to save some (1 Cor 9:22). Do the elect need Paul's help with assuring the saved?
3 - Paul sacrificed so that men would be saved (1 Cor 10:33). This makes no sense for certain and irresistible grace.
4 - Paul persuaded men (2 Cor 5:11). The elect don't need persuading and the non elect can't be persuaded.
5 - Paul was willing to go to Hell for the unsaved Jew (Rom 9:3). How could he care more about the destiny of the unsaved than God?

 

Acts 13:48 and Acts 13:46

VS 48 - The Calvinist say, "Here is a plain statement that those who believe are those who are sovereignly ordained to believe."
VS 46 - Here we see that salvation is associated with man's response to the gospel. These Jews did not go to Hell because they were not part of the elect but because they refused to believe.

John 6:37 and John 6:40

VS 37 - Again a Calvinist's favorite. Here you find your doctrine of sovereign election and irresistible grace.
VS 40 - Here the "sovereign" will of God is said to be that every sinner who believes on Christ will be saved. Man has a choice in salvation and a great many other verses agree.

John 6:44 and John 12:32

VS 44 - Again, here you would say sovereign election and irresistible grace.
12:32 - Here we see God is drawing all men to Christ.

Faith and Believing are not works.
Eph. 2:8-9
Rom. 4:5
The Bible teaches that Man is:
Morally corrupt (Jer 17:9; Rom 3:10-18)
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1)
Spiritually Blind (1 Cor 2:14)
BUT IT DOES NOT teach that man CANNOT respond to the gospel.

It DOES teach that:
God enables man to respond giving them light (Jn 1:9)
God draws (Jn 12:32)
Convicts them (Jn 16:8)
Is calling them through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14)
Commands them to repent (Acts 17:30)
Believe on Him (Acts 16:31)

I know, "what about Cain?".
God urged Cain not to act on his jealous anger and Cain resisted.

Noah preached for 120yrs about God's will for man but man resisted.

In Matt 23:37, we see the sovereign will of Christ was refused by Israel.

The unsaved of our day... 2 Cor. 4:3-4
Here we see that men are blinded because of their own unbelief and they are lost because they reject the Gospel.
It's Gods sovereign will to save every sinner (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9), but sinners can resist Him. Have you ever been convicted by the Holy Spirit but not done it?

Can you Calvinist explain Paul?
1 - He attempted to win the more (1 Cor. 9:19). How can this been done if the # is already settled?
2 - Paul's goal was to save some (1 Cor 9:22). Do the elect need Paul's help with assuring the saved?
3 - Paul sacrificed so that men would be saved (1 Cor 10:33). This makes no sense for certain and irresistible grace.
4 - Paul persuaded men (2 Cor 5:11). The elect don't need persuading and the non elect can't be persuaded.
5 - Paul was willing to go to Hell for the unsaved Jew (Rom 9:3). How could he care more about the destiny of the unsaved than God?

 

Acts 13:48 and Acts 13:46

VS 48 - The Calvinist say, "Here is a plain statement that those who believe are those who are sovereignly ordained to believe."
VS 46 - Here we see that salvation is associated with man's response to the gospel. These Jews did not go to Hell because they were not part of the elect but because they refused to believe.

John 6:37 and John 6:40

VS 37 - Again a Calvinist's favorite. Here you find your doctrine of sovereign election and irresistible grace.
VS 40 - Here the "sovereign" will of God is said to be that every sinner who believes on Christ will be saved. Man has a choice in salvation and a great many other verses agree.

John 6:44 and John 12:32

VS 44 - Again, here you would say sovereign election and irresistible grace.
12:32 - Here we see God is drawing all men to Christ.

Faith and Believing are not works.
Eph. 2:8-9
Rom. 4:5
The Bible teaches that Man is:
Morally corrupt (Jer 17:9; Rom 3:10-18)
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1)
Spiritually Blind (1 Cor 2:14)
BUT IT DOES NOT teach that man CANNOT respond to the gospel.

It DOES teach that:
God enables man to respond giving them light (Jn 1:9)
God draws (Jn 12:32)
Convicts them (Jn 16:8)
Is calling them through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14)
Commands them to repent (Acts 17:30)
Believe on Him (Acts 16:31)

I know, "what about Cain?".
God urged Cain not to act on his jealous anger and Cain resisted.

Noah preached for 120yrs about God's will for man but man resisted.

In Matt 23:37, we see the sovereign will of Christ was refused by Israel.

The unsaved of our day... 2 Cor. 4:3-4
Here we see that men are blinded because of their own unbelief and they are lost because they reject the Gospel.
It's Gods sovereign will to save every sinner (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9), but sinners can resist Him. Have you ever been convicted by the Holy Spirit but not done it?

Can you Calvinist explain Paul?
1 - He attempted to win the more (1 Cor. 9:19). How can this been done if the # is already settled?
2 - Paul's goal was to save some (1 Cor 9:22). Do the elect need Paul's help with assuring the saved?
3 - Paul sacrificed so that men would be saved (1 Cor 10:33). This makes no sense for certain and irresistible grace.
4 - Paul persuaded men (2 Cor 5:11). The elect don't need persuading and the non elect can't be persuaded.
5 - Paul was willing to go to Hell for the unsaved Jew (Rom 9:3). How could he care more about the destiny of the unsaved than God?

 

Ok, I will take the bait ;-)

1. God does not tell us who is elect and who is not. We are commanded by God to share to gospel with everyone. Some will accept, some will reject. We don't know beforehand who is who.

2. Not sure what you are asking here.

3. It makes perfect sense if you really understood the nature of God sovereignty.
God uses ordinary means to accomplish His ends.
God has not only ordained His will in eternity past but He has ordained the means that it will take to carry it out.
He has ordained the preaching of the gospel to lost sinners.

4. Sure Paul persuaded. I am persuading you to to embrace the true doctrines of Grace.
I know full well that God will have to open your eyes to the truth and that if He does not, you will continue in your error. I pray that doesn't happen and will do what I can to show you the truth. For all I know, God may use my persuasion to open your eyes. He may also use it to harden your heart.

5. I think this is a total strawman. I don't see any reference to Paul laying his life down for sinners so I think your claim holds no water.


In closing I would like to remind you that I was raised very similar to you.
I used to scoff at "calvinism" but then as I got older and studied on my own I knew it was right.
But even then I didn't want to believe it. It took great trial in my life to get me to give in and believe what I was so clearly seeing in the Bible.

I hope it does not take such an event in your life to do the same.


God bless you as you continue to study his word.