Calling all Calvinists

yours is a spirit of combativeness, not discussion. just because no one gives you the time of day doesn't mean no one has the answer. That's like daring God to kill you. He may have better things to do.

 

The salvation of the elect IS conditional. God just works faith within them so that they meet the condition.

BTW, the subjunctive tense doesn't have to denote uncertainty. It can denote purpose as well, in the same way that the subjunctive can denote purpose in English. For instance, if I say that I'm going to buy groceries so that we may eat supper, I'm saying more about the purpose of my trip to the store than I am about the uncertainty of supper at my house.

If it denotes uncertainty here, then what the verse is saying is that there is uncertainty whether "believing ones" will be saved.

 

Whetstone,

I have not seen much discussion in this part of the board ... IMHO ...

 

You mean like he does for All who are willing to be saved? All who hear and believe.

There is nothing special then for the "elect" now is there?

 

Yes.

Yes there is, because it's the elect that are brought to willingness, the elect are those whose ears are opened and within whom faith is worked.

 

haha true true.

 

if falling away is possible, why do you suppose God calls it 'eternal' life I wonder? Why didn't He call it 'possible' life, or 'conditional' life? This isn't an argument- just a question I ponder.

 

Yes, I do. It stands for unconditional ELECTION. It means ELECTION is unconditional. It does not stand for unconditional SALVATION. Salvation IS conditional.

The point remains--the subjunctive does not have to mean there's uncertainty.

 

I see no reason to believe Israel has somehow lost it's eternal covenant. Again I ask- Why would God use the word eternal if He doesn't mean eternal? Why say something will last forever if it won't?

Also- if you weren't required to do anything for your salvation, why must you do something to keep it?

 

When you post something silly late on Sunday night, don't be surprised that no one answer in less than an hour.

First, not all Calvinists define "world" as "elect." That is actually a minority view, I believe. Second, your own verse shows how ridiculous your assertion is. You can't hang your hat on the subjunctive being "not certain and conditional" because v. 16 uses the subjunctive to promise salvation to the believers. Surely you would not argue that believers only "might be" saved, but not "certainly saved" ...

The word everlasting sometimes means a long period of time, rather than endless. But the covenant God made with Israel is still good (cf Gal 3:16; and too many other passages to list here). The church has not replaced Israel. They are still his people, and when the repent, they will be restored.

 

haha true true. </font>[/QUOTE]we know why ... we know why ... ROFL ... but we're not telling ya ...

wa ha ha ha ha !

 

No I don't. It doesn't always denote uncertainty. Even in the English example I used, the point of the subjunctive isn't uncertainty, but purpose.

"Shall", "should", or "will" can be a legitimate translation of a subjunctive mood. In fact, in this case (John 3:16), either "shall", "should" or "will" is the choice of every translation I've looked at. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

Yes.

Yes there is, because it's the elect that are brought to willingness, the elect are those whose ears are opened and within whom faith is worked. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is worked? You simply do not understand the essence of faith!

 

That anyone has faith is a result of God's work within them.