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Calvinism and John 3:16
- Thread starter Salty
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
here goes again for those who missed my earlier posts on this passage
"For so God loved the world in this way: He gave His Unique Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"
In the first place, the "Love" here of God, in the context, is clearly His "Saving Love", as the passage is talking about the salvation of believing sinners
In the second place, again, contextually, "τὸν κόσμον", can only mean "the entire human race", or better as John Calvin says, "everyone without exception". It is NOT to be "limited" as some do, for the purpose of their "theology", mean "the elect". This argument, as we shall see is absurd!
In the third place, the Greek adjective, "πᾶς", has the meaning, "everyone", the KJV and others read, "whosoever". These are those from "τὸν κόσμον".
In the fourth place, the "πᾶς" here are limited to those, "who believe in Him (Jesus Christ)", and not "τὸν κόσμον"
In the fifth place, there are two classes of "τὸν κόσμον" in this passage, "ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν"; and "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", those "who believe", and those "who do not believe". This means the "ability" to either "accept", or "reject", Jesus Christ.
In the sixth place, if we were to understand "τὸν κόσμον", as only "the elect", then it is clear from the passage, that there are "some" of "the elect", who will be saved and have eternal life; and there are the others, "who do not believe", who are judged, "because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God". Which means there are those "unbelieving" of "the elect", who will be eternally lost.
In the seventh place, it says, "ἀλλ' ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι' αὐτοῦ", where the verb "σωθῇ", is in the subjunctive, meaning "conditional", "might be saved". the "condition" here is "believing".
One of the clearest and strongest passages against "Particular Redemption", The "L" in TULIP.
"For so God loved the world in this way: He gave His Unique Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"
In the first place, the "Love" here of God, in the context, is clearly His "Saving Love", as the passage is talking about the salvation of believing sinners
In the second place, again, contextually, "τὸν κόσμον", can only mean "the entire human race", or better as John Calvin says, "everyone without exception". It is NOT to be "limited" as some do, for the purpose of their "theology", mean "the elect". This argument, as we shall see is absurd!
In the third place, the Greek adjective, "πᾶς", has the meaning, "everyone", the KJV and others read, "whosoever". These are those from "τὸν κόσμον".
In the fourth place, the "πᾶς" here are limited to those, "who believe in Him (Jesus Christ)", and not "τὸν κόσμον"
In the fifth place, there are two classes of "τὸν κόσμον" in this passage, "ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν"; and "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", those "who believe", and those "who do not believe". This means the "ability" to either "accept", or "reject", Jesus Christ.
In the sixth place, if we were to understand "τὸν κόσμον", as only "the elect", then it is clear from the passage, that there are "some" of "the elect", who will be saved and have eternal life; and there are the others, "who do not believe", who are judged, "because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God". Which means there are those "unbelieving" of "the elect", who will be eternally lost.
In the seventh place, it says, "ἀλλ' ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι' αὐτοῦ", where the verb "σωθῇ", is in the subjunctive, meaning "conditional", "might be saved". the "condition" here is "believing".
One of the clearest and strongest passages against "Particular Redemption", The "L" in TULIP.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
In what way does it show Calvinism is wrong? None whatsoever.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
First:
It is not clear that “love” in this context is “saving love”. We are saved by God’s grace (unmerited favor).
If you believe it means “saving love” applied to all of humanity without exception and given the passage in I Corinthians that “love never fails”, then you must embrace universal salvation in order to maintain consistency in your logic.
Second:
The “whosoever believes” of John 3:16 has already been limited earlier in Chapter 3 with “the wind (Spirit) blows where He wills, so is everyone born of the Spirit.” It clearly expresses the truth that those who are “born again” or “born from above” come to that condition by the “will” of God Holy Spirit.
This is a repeating theme in John, first expressed in Chapter 1 where we are told those who are “sons of God” are born by the “will of God”.
Third:
The category of “believers” and “unbelievers” does not denote free choice to accept or reject.
This becomes clear in Chapter 10 and the Good Shepherd. Jesus clearly says 1. Only His sheep recognize His voice 2. Only His sheep folllw Him. 3. He calls His sheep BY NAME. That is a specific call to specific people, not a general call to all.
This is further proven by Jesus’ statement to the Pharisees that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. He does not say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe which would be consistent with your belief.
Reformed theology is clearly taught throughout scripture, including John 3:16.
peace to you
It is not clear that “love” in this context is “saving love”. We are saved by God’s grace (unmerited favor).
If you believe it means “saving love” applied to all of humanity without exception and given the passage in I Corinthians that “love never fails”, then you must embrace universal salvation in order to maintain consistency in your logic.
Second:
The “whosoever believes” of John 3:16 has already been limited earlier in Chapter 3 with “the wind (Spirit) blows where He wills, so is everyone born of the Spirit.” It clearly expresses the truth that those who are “born again” or “born from above” come to that condition by the “will” of God Holy Spirit.
This is a repeating theme in John, first expressed in Chapter 1 where we are told those who are “sons of God” are born by the “will of God”.
Third:
The category of “believers” and “unbelievers” does not denote free choice to accept or reject.
This becomes clear in Chapter 10 and the Good Shepherd. Jesus clearly says 1. Only His sheep recognize His voice 2. Only His sheep folllw Him. 3. He calls His sheep BY NAME. That is a specific call to specific people, not a general call to all.
This is further proven by Jesus’ statement to the Pharisees that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. He does not say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe which would be consistent with your belief.
Reformed theology is clearly taught throughout scripture, including John 3:16.
peace to you
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Oh my goodness, in NO WAY does this dismantle definite atonement. Goodness.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
SHHH you are being logical. He can't stand that.
Using sbw's translation:
"For so God loved the world in this way: He gave His Unique Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"
1) The way God loves the world is by giving His Son (God the Son) as a sacrifice for sins.
2) (Only)Those who believe will have eternal life. The rest will perish in hell. [Note the limited nature of salvation]
3) Everyone (who believes) whether Jew, Greek, Slave, Free, Male, Female, etc., is not judged.
4) Everyone who does not (did not) believe is judged already (This shows the predetermined nature of God's grace) and is condemned because they did not believe.
This could easily segue right into Paul's magnum opus from Romans 1 through Romans 11 on justification by faith alone. John 3 is a rich passage for the Reformed who believe that God is fully Sovereign and fully capable of saving sinners apart from human cooperation. Just keep reading Romans and you can see the connection.
Sadly, however, some people will demand that passages be isolated into little sound bytes that are devoid of context and the fullness of scripture. This accounts for the works based teaching of some who demand human repentance before God can save.
"For so God loved the world in this way: He gave His Unique Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"
1) The way God loves the world is by giving His Son (God the Son) as a sacrifice for sins.
2) (Only)Those who believe will have eternal life. The rest will perish in hell. [Note the limited nature of salvation]
3) Everyone (who believes) whether Jew, Greek, Slave, Free, Male, Female, etc., is not judged.
4) Everyone who does not (did not) believe is judged already (This shows the predetermined nature of God's grace) and is condemned because they did not believe.
This could easily segue right into Paul's magnum opus from Romans 1 through Romans 11 on justification by faith alone. John 3 is a rich passage for the Reformed who believe that God is fully Sovereign and fully capable of saving sinners apart from human cooperation. Just keep reading Romans and you can see the connection.
Sadly, however, some people will demand that passages be isolated into little sound bytes that are devoid of context and the fullness of scripture. This accounts for the works based teaching of some who demand human repentance before God can save.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
one liners are never an answer, try to show WHERE I am wrong!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Nice try, but your personal "Reformed theology" is AGAINST the Bible here!
Even Robert Dabney, who was a Calvinist, has this to say on the use of “kosmos” here:
“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
We have, MANY times. And your Greek, oh brother. Your self taught, you know more than the experts Greek? Give me a break.Dude, can you prove what I have said to be wrong? Lets see your Greek at work!
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
God loved the world IN THIS WAY. That he gave his son. It's not a saving love. Not everyone is saved. WHOSOEVER are the ones that are saved. Not all. It's not universal, it is not unlimited, there is a set of people that have been saved.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I can't stand the UNBIBLICAL nonsense that the "Reformed" try with their "theology"!
Here is another "Calvinist", John Trapp
Ver. 16. God so loved the world] This is a sic so without a sicut, just as, there being nothing in nature wherewith to parallel it. The world, that is, all mankind fallen in Adam. This the apostle fitly calleth God’s philanthropy, Tit_3:4, it being a sweet favour to the whole kind of us that any are saved by Christ.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And you are assuming that all Calvinists are saying that it means the elect world. I know I don't argue that. You are making strawman arguments.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and as before, you falsely accuse, but cannot put up! PROVE me wrong!
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And this proves what exactly?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Read the verse, you are wrong on just about every level.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
If this is the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, then it is CLEAR that GOD SO LOVES, that He SENT His Unique Son for this RACE, for their SALVATION!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
that those who are HONEST "reformed", can admit what the passage ACTUALLY says!
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