Featured Calvinism and the warning passages

Iconoclast · Apr 23, 2018

Found this online today....do you find it helpful?

Calvinism and the Warning Passages: A Brief Reply to Scot McKnight – Credo Magazine

Scot McKnight has written some fascinating posts on Calvinism and the warning passages in Hebrews over at Jesus Creed. It is not my purpose to give a full response (see Thomas R Schreiner & Ardel B. Caneday, The Race Set before Us). These posts accord with an outstanding article that Scot wrote for Trinity Journal in the early 1990s: “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” TrinJ 13 (1992): 21-59. In reading Scot’s posts I remembered how helped I was by his article and the extent of our agreement.

So, let me begin with where we agree. First, Scot is exactly right in saying that all the warning passages must be read together and that they must be read synoptically. The warning passages mutually shed light on one another. How many interpreters and preachers fail to follow this simple principle! The author has one main point in the letter: don’t fall away! His whole sermon is designed to drive that point home (Heb. 13:22).

Second, I agree with Scot that the consequence of the sin described in Hebrews is final and eternal judgment. The author is not just talking about losing rewards. He is talking about going to hell.

Third, Scot shows that the warning passages are addressed to believers. The writer addresses the readers as “you” and includes himself in the warnings with words like “us” and “we.” The readers are called “brothers” and identified as “believers.” Yes, this is even true in Hebrews 6. I agree that it is special pleading to say that those who are partakers of the Holy Spirit are unsaved.

Fourth, the sin warned against is: apostasy. That is, the author warns his readers about the danger of falling away from the faith, of denying Jesus and his atoning work. It makes sense that the sin is apostasy since the consequences are final judgment.

Fifth, Calvinists and Arminians, as Scot points out, hold something very important in common. We both believe that one must persevere to the end to be saved. We both believe that one is not guaranteed of salvation by an initial “decision” of faith. In the midst of our theological agreements, we shouldn’t forget where we agree and rejoice in that agreement. To a remarkable extent we preach the text the same way!

So, where do we differ? We must remember that the passages are warnings and admonitions. They say nothing about whether believers will actually fall away. They are not declarations but warnings. The common response is that the warnings are beside the point if believers can’t fall away. What a silly waste of time! But that objection fails if the warnings are a means by which God keeps his elect. I would argue that the warning passages are always effective in the lives of the elect, i.e., those who are truly saved always heed the warnings, and it is precisely by heeding the warnings that they are preserved until the end.

Space is lacking here to provide a full defense (see The Race Set before Us). But I would like to close by quoting Charles Spurgeon, for he argued for what I am saying here long ago in his memorable and striking way.

First, then, we answer the question, WHO ARE THE PEOPLE HERE SPOKEN OF? If you read Dr. Gill, Dr. Owen, and almost all the eminent Calvinistic writers, they all of them assert that these persons are not Christians. They say, that enough is said here to represent a man who is a Christian externally, but not enough to give the portrait of a true believer. Now, it strikes me they would not have said this if they had not had some doctrine to uphold; for a child, reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here. How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God? With all deference to these learned doctors, and I admire and love them all, I humbly conceive that they allowed their judgments to be a little warped when they said that; and I think I shall be able to show that none but true believers are here described.

Spurgeon then goes on to respond to the objection that the warnings are unnecessary if believers can’t fall away. He argues that the warnings are a means by which believers are preserved until the end.

But,’ says one, ‘You say they cannot fall away.’ What is the use of putting this ‘if’ in, like a bugbear to frighten children, or like a ghost that can have no existence? My learned friend, ‘Who art thou that repliest against God?’ If God has put it in, he has put it in for wise reasons and for excellent purposes. Let me show you why. First, O Christian, it is put in to keep thee from falling away. God preserves his children from falling away; but he keeps them by the use of means; and one of these is, the terrors of the law, showing them what would happen if they were to fall away. There is a deep precipice: what is the best way to keep any one from going down there? Why, to tell him that if he did he would inevitably be dashed to pieces. In some old castle there is a deep cellar, where there is a vast amount of fixed air and gas, which would kill anybody who went down. What does the guide say? ‘If you go down you will never come up alive.’ Who thinks of going down? The very fact of the guide telling us what the consequences would be, keeps us from it. Our friend puts away from us a cup of arsenic; he does not want us to drink it, but he says, ‘If you drink it, it will kill you.’ Does he suppose for a moment that we should drink it. No; he tells us the consequences, and he is sure we will not do it. So God says, ‘My child, if you fall over this precipice you will be dashed to pieces.’ What does the child do? He says, ‘Father, keep me; hold thou me up, and I shall be safe.’ It leads the believer to greater dependence on God, to a holy fear and caution, because he knows that if he were to fall away he could not be renewed, and he stands far away from that great gulf, because he know that if he were to fall into it there would be no salvation for him.

SolaSaint · Apr 24, 2018

Good post Icon, I have never heard that explanation before, thanks....

Iconoclast said: ↑

Found this online today....do you find it helpful?

Calvinism and the Warning Passages: A Brief Reply to Scot McKnight – Credo Magazine

Scot McKnight has written some fascinating posts on Calvinism and the warning passages in Hebrews over at Jesus Creed. It is not my purpose to give a full response (see Thomas R Schreiner & Ardel B. Caneday, The Race Set before Us). These posts accord with an outstanding article that Scot wrote for Trinity Journal in the early 1990s: “The Warning Passages of Hebrews: A Formal Analysis and Theological Conclusions,” TrinJ 13 (1992): 21-59. In reading Scot’s posts I remembered how helped I was by his article and the extent of our agreement.

So, let me begin with where we agree. First, Scot is exactly right in saying that all the warning passages must be read together and that they must be read synoptically. The warning passages mutually shed light on one another. How many interpreters and preachers fail to follow this simple principle! The author has one main point in the letter: don’t fall away! His whole sermon is designed to drive that point home (Heb. 13:22).

Second, I agree with Scot that the consequence of the sin described in Hebrews is final and eternal judgment. The author is not just talking about losing rewards. He is talking about going to hell.

Third, Scot shows that the warning passages are addressed to believers. The writer addresses the readers as “you” and includes himself in the warnings with words like “us” and “we.” The readers are called “brothers” and identified as “believers.” Yes, this is even true in Hebrews 6. I agree that it is special pleading to say that those who are partakers of the Holy Spirit are unsaved.

Fourth, the sin warned against is: apostasy. That is, the author warns his readers about the danger of falling away from the faith, of denying Jesus and his atoning work. It makes sense that the sin is apostasy since the consequences are final judgment.

Fifth, Calvinists and Arminians, as Scot points out, hold something very important in common. We both believe that one must persevere to the end to be saved. We both believe that one is not guaranteed of salvation by an initial “decision” of faith. In the midst of our theological agreements, we shouldn’t forget where we agree and rejoice in that agreement. To a remarkable extent we preach the text the same way!

So, where do we differ? We must remember that the passages are warnings and admonitions. They say nothing about whether believers will actually fall away. They are not declarations but warnings. The common response is that the warnings are beside the point if believers can’t fall away. What a silly waste of time! But that objection fails if the warnings are a means by which God keeps his elect. I would argue that the warning passages are always effective in the lives of the elect, i.e., those who are truly saved always heed the warnings, and it is precisely by heeding the warnings that they are preserved until the end.

Space is lacking here to provide a full defense (see The Race Set before Us). But I would like to close by quoting Charles Spurgeon, for he argued for what I am saying here long ago in his memorable and striking way.

First, then, we answer the question, WHO ARE THE PEOPLE HERE SPOKEN OF? If you read Dr. Gill, Dr. Owen, and almost all the eminent Calvinistic writers, they all of them assert that these persons are not Christians. They say, that enough is said here to represent a man who is a Christian externally, but not enough to give the portrait of a true believer. Now, it strikes me they would not have said this if they had not had some doctrine to uphold; for a child, reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here. How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God? With all deference to these learned doctors, and I admire and love them all, I humbly conceive that they allowed their judgments to be a little warped when they said that; and I think I shall be able to show that none but true believers are here described.

Spurgeon then goes on to respond to the objection that the warnings are unnecessary if believers can’t fall away. He argues that the warnings are a means by which believers are preserved until the end.

But,’ says one, ‘You say they cannot fall away.’ What is the use of putting this ‘if’ in, like a bugbear to frighten children, or like a ghost that can have no existence? My learned friend, ‘Who art thou that repliest against God?’ If God has put it in, he has put it in for wise reasons and for excellent purposes. Let me show you why. First, O Christian, it is put in to keep thee from falling away. God preserves his children from falling away; but he keeps them by the use of means; and one of these is, the terrors of the law, showing them what would happen if they were to fall away. There is a deep precipice: what is the best way to keep any one from going down there? Why, to tell him that if he did he would inevitably be dashed to pieces. In some old castle there is a deep cellar, where there is a vast amount of fixed air and gas, which would kill anybody who went down. What does the guide say? ‘If you go down you will never come up alive.’ Who thinks of going down? The very fact of the guide telling us what the consequences would be, keeps us from it. Our friend puts away from us a cup of arsenic; he does not want us to drink it, but he says, ‘If you drink it, it will kill you.’ Does he suppose for a moment that we should drink it. No; he tells us the consequences, and he is sure we will not do it. So God says, ‘My child, if you fall over this precipice you will be dashed to pieces.’ What does the child do? He says, ‘Father, keep me; hold thou me up, and I shall be safe.’ It leads the believer to greater dependence on God, to a holy fear and caution, because he knows that if he were to fall away he could not be renewed, and he stands far away from that great gulf, because he know that if he were to fall into it there would be no salvation for him.
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kyredneck · Apr 24, 2018

...Hellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhell...

atpollard · Apr 24, 2018

kyredneck said: ↑

...Hellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhellhell...
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Mentioned 13 times in the NASB Bible (11 times from the lips of Jesus):

[Mat 5:22, 29-30 NASB] 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. ... 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
[Mat 10:28 NASB] 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[Mat 18:9 NASB] 9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
[Mat 23:15, 33 NASB] 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. ... 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
[Mar 9:43, 45, 47 NASB] 43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, ... 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, ... 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
[Luk 12:5 NASB] 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
[Jas 3:6 NASB] 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
[2Pe 2:4 NASB] 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

... Perhaps God thought it was important to warn us about it?

and the word "torment" also appears 13 times in the NASB Bible NT:

[Mat 8:29 NASB] 29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
[Mar 5:7 NASB] 7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"
[Luk 8:28 NASB] 28 Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me."
[Luk 16:23, 28 NASB] 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. ... 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[2Co 12:7 NASB] 7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
[Rev 9:5 NASB] 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
[Rev 14:11 NASB] 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
[Rev 18:7, 10, 15 NASB] 7 "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.' ... 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' ... 15 "The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

kyredneck · Apr 24, 2018

...lol, Icon should love you....

atpollard · Apr 24, 2018

Iconoclast said: ↑

But that objection fails if the warnings are a means by which God keeps his elect. I would argue that the warning passages are always effective in the lives of the elect, i.e., those who are truly saved always heed the warnings, and it is precisely by heeding the warnings that they are preserved until the end.
Click to expand...

That was a fascinating observation.
So those who are predestined to persevere to the end will heed all of the warnings, because the Holy Spirit has given them "ears to hear". Those who have what James describes as a 'dead faith' ... the tares planted among the wheat ... have no 'ears to hear' and will not heed the warnings.

Yeshua1 · Apr 24, 2018

atpollard said: ↑

That was a fascinating observation.
So those who are predestined to persevere to the end will heed all of the warnings, because the Holy Spirit has given them "ears to hear". Those who have what James describes as a 'dead faith' ... the tares planted among the wheat ... have no 'ears to hear' and will not heed the warnings.
Click to expand...

Doesn't the writer of Hebrews himself state though that those he describes in Hebrews 6 are indeed mere professors, as they do turn away in the end, and that he is persuaded for the saved there to remain unto the end?

tyndale1946 · Apr 27, 2018

kyredneck said: ↑

...lol, Icon should love you....
Click to expand...

I never forget the comment my Dad made when I asked him if smoking would send a believer to hell... He said no son it will not BUT it will make him smell like he had already been there... I gave up smoking loooooong agooooo!... Didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea!... Gave up dancing too... You know what they say about dancing Baptist?... Brother Glen

Iconoclast · May 1, 2018

atpollard said: ↑

That was a fascinating observation.
So those who are predestined to persevere to the end will heed all of the warnings, because the Holy Spirit has given them "ears to hear". Those who have what James describes as a 'dead faith' ... the tares planted among the wheat ... have no 'ears to hear' and will not heed the warnings.
Click to expand...

The shipwreck in Acts 27 is a biblical example.Paul is informed that there will be no loss of life among them,but .....only of the ship.....no loss of life was the final outcome.....but only of the ship...was part of the ordained means.
Vs.31,34,44
The same is true of the warning passages....they are part of the God ordained means leading the elect unto final perseverance .

Martin Marprelate · May 1, 2018

tyndale1946 said: ↑

You know what they say about dancing Baptist?...
Click to expand...

No. What do they say about dancing Baptists? Should I take it up?

We had a dancing Vicar on UK TV last year.

Jordan Kurecki · May 1, 2018

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(Matthew 7:17-20 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.)

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I respectfully disagree with Charles Spurgeon.

Iconoclast · May 1, 2018

Jordan Kurecki said: ↑

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(Matthew 7:17-20 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.)

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I respectfully disagree with Charles Spurgeon.
Click to expand...

Disagree about what?

atpollard · May 1, 2018

Jordan Kurecki said: ↑

I respectfully disagree with Charles Spurgeon.
Click to expand...

Then would you care to provide an exegesis on the verses and your thoughts on what their purpose is for believers (if any)?

tyndale1946 · May 1, 2018

Martin Marprelate said: ↑

No. What do they say about dancing Baptists? Should I take it up?

We had a dancing Vicar on UK TV last year.
Click to expand...

Ok Martin here goes... It is said that dancing can lead to another physical activity... Most people don't dance alone... Martin, for crying out loud, do I have to draw you a picture... Brother Glen

kyredneck · May 1, 2018

Lol...Glen, stop messin with the Anglos, you might have to draw a picture, and you KNOW you don't want to do that! ...lol..

David Kent · May 1, 2018

Jordan Kurecki said: ↑

I respectfully disagree with Charles Spurgeon.
Click to expand...

In what?

Earth Wind and Fire · May 2, 2018

tyndale1946 said: ↑

Ok Martin here goes... It is said that dancing can lead to another physical activity... Most people don't dance alone... Martin, for crying out loud, do I have to draw you a picture... Brother Glen
Click to expand...

Dancing, and liquor... don’t forget the liquor

tyndale1946 · May 2, 2018

Earth Wind and Fire said: ↑

Dancing, and liquor... don’t forget the liquor
Click to expand...

I wanted to keep it low key... You know us Baptist don't have a Vicar... Had to look that one up... I thought he was one of those whirling dervish fellas... Yeah I'll take Kentucky's advise and not mess with the Anglos... Well you live and learn everyday... Sorry Martin I turned your Vicar into a Turk... Brother Glen

Rockson · Jun 3, 2018

atpollard said: ↑

That was a fascinating observation.
So those who are predestined to persevere to the end will heed all of the warnings, because the Holy Spirit has given them "ears to hear". Those who have what James describes as a 'dead faith' ... the tares planted among the wheat ... have no 'ears to hear' and will not heed the warnings.
Click to expand...

Well if it's preordained that people will hear that he decides will hear than why the warnings by Jesus, to "Take heed what you hear: with what measure you measure it will be measured to you and unto you who hear shall more be given" Mark 4: 23,24 Doesn't that clearly bring out the fact that hearing is a choice by the individual? Surely it has to be if language means anything.

Iconoclast · Jun 4, 2018

Rockson said: ↑

Well if it's preordained that people will hear that he decides will hear than why the warnings by Jesus, to "Take heed what you hear: with what measure you measure it will be measured to you and unto you who hear shall more be given" Mark 4: 23,24 Doesn't that clearly bring out the fact that hearing is a choice by the individual? Surely it has to be if language means anything.
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It highlights that we are responsible as God works through means.

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