Calvinism is based upon an assumption

I believe Calvinism is based on one false assumption. I realize that is a large accusation, but until someone can refute my arguement I'll stand by it.

Calvinists assume passages of scripture addressed to the apostles during the apostolic age is always applicable to us in regard to salvation. Let me prove my point:

Let's take John 15:16 for example: "You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit."

My position: God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles.

Calvinist position: God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles and all future believers.

Fact: Jesus was speaking to the apostles in this passage.

Assumption: Jesus meant this for everyone who believes.

Therefore, Calvinism rests upon an assumption. My position rests upon a fact. The burden to link the application of "Sovereign Election" and "Effectual Calling" to all future believers is on you because your making the assumption. I, on the other hand, am presenting a fact.

The burden is on you, please prove your position.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

There he goes again, ladies and gentlemen, ignoring the weird guy because he is just presenting his "OPINION".

Funny, how he answers everyone else opinions based upon their interpretations but he avoids mine. Hmmmm

Maybe I've hit a nerve?

Bro. Bill

 

Npetreley and Sturgman,

You keep saying that I haven't presented any scriptural support for my view that we are saved "differently" than the apostles.

I have, here they are simply laid out for you:

1) Paul and his claims of Apostolic Authority rest upon his unique calling (Galatians 1)

2) The fact that Scripture passages having to do with "effectual calling" and "Sovereign election" are addressed to the apostles.

3) Jesus' prayer in which he specifies that his apostles were "given to him by the father" but does not make that distinction about those "who believe by their message." (Jn 17)

4) Jesus' speaking of the sheep in John 10 says that there is another flock of sheep that are yet to come in suggesting they come in through faith.

5) The fact that the apostles were not saved by grace through faith. But we are! Jesus said to Thomas, "You believe because you've seen me, but blessed are they who do not see me but still believe." Thomas came to believe in a different way than we do.

I could go on but I'm beginning to learn that you all have a tendency to ignore my arguements all together if its too long for you to handle.

HOW MUCH MORE "SCRIPTURAL" ARGUEMENTS DO YOU TWO NEED BEFORE YOU STOP IGNORING MY POSTS?

Bro. Bill

 

Ok, for the sake of arguement lets say that all believers are in view in this text. You must remember the issues of the first apostles. They were not dealing with debates of Calvinism versus Arminianism they were dealing with Gentiles being allowed to relate to God for the first time as His people. Hermeneutics force us to ask, Who is Paul's audience. If you know your bible you know that the church in Thessalonica was predominantly Gentile. So it is easy to see that the point Paul is making is that God has chosen the Gentiles for salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit. This was a new concept to their world that Gentiles were chosen to be granted the ability to come into a relationship with God through faith as well.

So, it would be like Paul is saying, We thank the Lord that he has chosen to allow salvation for the Gentiles (his audience) and not just the Jews.

Whoa Nellie! This is NOT what the apostle Paul said:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked...among them WE TOO all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh...and were by nature children of wrath, EVEN AS THE REST. But God, being righ in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trangressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship....

The WE's ( Apostle Paul included) and YOU's (other believers) are intermingled within this explanation of salvation, and they are all saved by grace through faith. We ( the apostle Paul includes Himself) are His workmanship BECAUSE (that's what the word "for" means) we are saved by grace through faith, through God's work and not our own work.

What you are espousing here is against the direct teaching of scripture, and not worth the number of threads you are starting on the same subject. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, maybe I shouldn't have started so many threads, but lets move on to the arguements.

I notice you ignored my scripture reference to Thomas. Do you believe that the apostles had to have faith (like we have) eventhough they witnessed Christ for themselves?

Paul does use the word "you" and not "we" when he says. "You have been saved by grace through faith." As apposed to his "we" verses which apply to him as an apostles. And he is addressing those who were not with Christ in that portion of the text, so this view actually supports my interpretation, not yours. Thanks for the arguement.

Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus and heard the revelation of Christ from Christ Himself. What about that is "faith?" We believe through faith. The disciples saw it first hand and were appointed to a divine task.

You're the one who is directly apposed to the scripture.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

I'm so tired of hearing this stupid arguement!

I could say the exact same thing about your belief. You're the one whose interpretation is based upon an assumption. Not mine! Just because there are more of you, you all think you don't have to provide scriptural support for your view.

"We're the holier than thou Calvinists and we don't have to defend our interpretations and opinions because we are Calvinists and that's enough." Give me a break!!!

You ask me to provide support that we are saved differently than the apostles. I provide 5 scripturally supported arguements and none of you have even attempted to address them. You all just keep saying, "were going to ignore you until you have scriptural support." If your waiting for me to find a verse that spells out my exact belief, it's not going to happen. And guess what, you ain't going to find one for the Calvinistic system either!

Here is a question for you! Why don't you say the same thing to the Arminians on this board who argue without scriptural support. You still refute their claims and opinions, but you won't do that with me. I wonder why?

Could I be on to something here? Hmmm

Bro. Bill

 

First, I made three distinct arguements in each of my three posts and I used scripture to support my claims. The only repetition was in my replies to repeatitive arguements. I'll be careful not to post so many threads at a time from now on.

Now let's move on.

You're correct Pastor Larry. I was a Calvinist for years and I am all too fimiliar with the meaning of these texts. And you are correct, I don't like where they take me. They take me to contradictions and confusion if applied the way that Calvinists apply them.

You're willing to accept the paradox that God's Sovereignity and man's responsiblity creates in the Calvinistic system. I'm not. It is confusing and unstable and I don't believe that God would author a confusing and unstable system of belief.

How can God geniunly call someone he is fully aware cannot come to Him and still hold him responsible for not coming? That is nonsense and deep down every Calvinist knows it. He reconciles it by say, "God's ways are higher than ours." But that's just a theological cop-out that could be applied to any arguement a system cannot answer. I don't buy it.

My interpretation, which IS possible you have to admit, does not afford this paradox. In fact, it explains these apparent contradictions and supplies answers that Calvinism fails to answer.

Such as, "Why does God elect certain individuals and not others?"

"How can God hold man responsible for something in which they have absolutely no control over?"

"Why does the Bible present the gospel as something that can be accepted or rejected by anyone?"

Pastor Larry, I have a question for you. Where does Paul, Peter, Christ and the other apostles refer to election to those other than the first disciples?

Thanks,
Bro. Bill

 

If you think they did not hear, see, and feel, Jesus just as we do then you are not living in the same natural life that most of us live in. They heard with their own ears, they saw with their own eyes, and some even touched Jesus in the same manner that many of us would. They simply did not have the written word of God to search the scriptures that we do to find out if these things are true. The Old testament, the Law and the Prophets contained nearly 70 prophesies about Jesus but not one of those prophesies would have been convincing enough by its self to make me or anyone else recognize Jesus to be the Son of God or the Messiah. The Apostles needed to come to the point where they could acknowledge Jesus for who and what he is in the same manner that we must come to that point. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree, but there is a difference. Thomas believed because he saw his hands and his scars. You and I believe because of faith. Not sight. Plus there is the little problem of scripture which clearly teaches that the apostles were "predestined" and "chosen" and "elect." You do an injustice to the text when you try to explain that away.

Bro. Bill