Peggy Said:
Calvinism is the most depressing "system" of theology.
The Bible says that Jesus died for all, that He desires all men to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Calvinism limits Jesus's atonement to "some men", and you never know if you are in or out.
Sadly, when presenting a purist-Calvinist presentation to a non-believer, it can easily be interpreted by the non-believer as "aloofism".
Why?: Because it presents to the non-believer the doctrine or message that "they"(the non-believer) may or may not be loved of God or are "called".........
Conclusion: The one presenting the purist Calvinistic gospel is in most cases covertly sending a message to the non believer that they(the Christian) was of the "chosen"............yet they
the "prospect" may or may not be...........but if you are currently seeking or interested in knowing God,
maybe you are one of the "elect".
What an "iffy" and "scarey" scenario. I thank God that when I was young and presented with the gospel, that it was explained as clearly as "Peggy" who posted a ways back.
The purist Calvinist has made what was a very simple communique from God, a very "iffy" and "shakey" thing IMO. It also promolgates big letter "P" pride in the purist Calvinist whether they want to accept this or not. When we consider ourselves to be one of the "elect" from before even being knitted in our mother's womb, the natural, base, human response/instinct is to consider oneself, "special" in ways that cause one to look at "some of" lost humanity as eternal discards, or "lost causes" for salvation. So now we evangelize at a mass to the peoples, and some will respond, and some won't. There is no desire to be more Christlike to present one's self to the unbelieving world in a more convincing, and Godly way. Afterall, "I" just have to do, "Thus sayeth the Lord", and then my responsiblity is done.
IMO opinion, a damnable condition or future-outlook, for any person who is possibly seeking or is even indifferent when initially presented the Calvinist angle on Christ's gospel. If I was informed as a non-believer that I may or may-not be one of His..........What a massive rejection of my person as a human being would that be! The Purist Calvinist God seems not unlike the Greek/Roman gods that omnipotently made decisions towards mankind with indifference.
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To this day..........I've pondered and pondered............how can the purist Calvinist have any motivation to evangelize.........Of course John MacArthur and others will continue to say that they evangelize like someone fireing a machine gun at a crowd of people...........They/Calvinists don't know who's called, but the bullets must fly anyway, so that some will hit the "called" of God. How can there be a loving, longing, desire of specificity towards any of the lost with this paradigm?
What motivation is there to reach the "lost world" with this doctrine?
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I've visited many strong Calvinist/reformed churches a guest of Calvinist friends, and the amount of emphasis on outreach to the lost is much less than what I've observed in churches where their doctrine takes a "middle ground" between Calvinism and Armenianism. I.E. what I would call "balanced".
God is not grey-area'd, but His salvation and mode of operation can and is His way..........It is most mysterious yet facinating how the H.S. works both independent of believers and through believers to convict this lost world.
Those that rejected Jesus were being "pricked" in the conscience by the H.S. as well as those that didn't reject but pursued more of Christ and His ministry.
Men reject Christ not out of being rejected from before they were knitted in their mother's wombs, but because the Spirit of God is giving working on them, and they are excercising their God created free-will.
I just think that Purist Calvinists have a hard time with this God endowed free will paradigm. It's not unlike the mystery of the Trinitarian make-up of the Godhead. The more we try to figure it out in our finite human minds, the more we must resolve to accept that it just, "is". The Spirit gives us comfort that God expresses Himself in three distinct Persons..........and that's just the way it is.
One the other hand, "free will" seems baffling to what we know or think we know of God's nature as expressed both in the O.T. and the N.T.. If God is sovereign over all of His creation, then how is it that His creation can do or choose to do anything that isn't in His divine or omnipotent will? Again, are finite minds are at an impasse, but we must, just accept that "free will" is a reality in God's human species.
Again, I find that with most purist Calvinists that I've met, that reaching out to the lost is a "duty" or "command" much more than an action initiated by a "love, or longing" for others to enjoy the "new eternal life" offered of God.
In some instances I've found that the Reformists who are exclusively Calvinistic tend to become more clanish, and expend an awful lot of their energetic lives trying to "win" over Christian, non-Calvinists or middle-roaders who embrace the biblical points in both camps. It is always dangerous ground for believers when the start to expend their energies towards the saved in order to make them "right" with God, than expending the energy towards bring the lost into the fold. Please don't mix this up with discipleship which isn't a work of evangelization, but a work of helping the believers to grow in maturity. Discipleship is most important, but the purist Calvinist, seems to have an awfully heavy and off balanced burden to make the all believers at home in their camp.
This last paragraph does concern me the most. It is the purist Calvinists energies being used more often to convince those of God's flock of their doctrine, more than the reaching-out to a lost, confused, and dieing world.
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Purist Calvinism at it's end product or results has two camps............Those that were "pre-programmed" from before time began to be God's children, and those from before time that were "Damned to hell". The flock was already established, they have the right "chips" in their souls, and the others either don't have'em or have "purposely" corrupted ones in them that God purposely corrupted so that they "could not" turn to Him in any way.
When I read the N.T. it does not reveal to me this "nature" of God that the Purist Calvinist embraces. Jesus said to His disciples that if you know me, you know the Father as well, becaue He/Jesus and the Father are One.
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Also, the great word, "Grace".............How does it stackup against the purist Calvinist doctrine of pre-selective election? Where is the grace to be appreciated by the purist Calvinist? I.E. "Thank you God that you picked me from eternity-past out of myriads that you decided not to pick."?
Oh yes, grace should make us think and feel special.........cause grace=unmerited favor to the nth degree. Did God limit His grace to just some of us? I thought that grace is a condition or offering of God's unmerited favor.........................that "Whoever should believe"..................Yes, "whoever".............should believe will be saved?
Peggy, back a few posts-ago just simply mentioned "the world"...............That was Peggy's response to this selective, election, that is based not on any cooperative will of man in conjunction with God's calling via the H.S............called "Calvinism".
Christ called us to come to Him as children..................Not theologians, or pseudo intellectuals.........who think they know the mind of God to the nth degree. God's gospel via Christ is simple, direct, and convincing via the work of the H.S. in every individual human being He created.
Did intentionally make millions of human beings just for kindling in hell's fire.?.............That isn't the God that was revealed to me through Jesus Christ.
