He falsely charged Toplady of saying something to the effect that only two out of twenty will be saved and damn the rest. Wesley actually made it seem Toplady wrote that -- but Wesley wrote and signed Toplady's name to that completely untrue statement.
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Calvinism is the best system
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
He falsely charged Toplady of saying something to the effect that only two out of twenty will be saved and damn the rest. Wesley actually made it seem Toplady wrote that -- but Wesley wrote and signed Toplady's name to that completely untrue statement.
I had said that the Church is not the narrow gate -- and you come up with this?!
There's no doubt about that. And he even knew a little more than you if you can admit to it.
What words have I put in Calvin's writings which were never there? Are you saying I'm part of the dreaded Alexandrian cult -- only this time tampering with Calvin's works?
I presume you meant that I believe differently than Calvin does in some matters. I plead guilty. So what's your point?
Don't let your extreme anti-Calvinistic stance get in the way of objectivity.
Actually I am probably more calvinistic than you. It seems to me that your view of God's sovereignty is limited to much less than what scripture teaches.
Do you think there is not many men who know the gospel very well yet deny it by their actions?
Anyone, lost or saved, can study the scriptures and give an opinion or preach. They can even preach love and kindness. But it all boils down to how they live their lives for Christ. Jesus warned the Pharisees of their hypocrisy.
When one speaks out hatred for another human being for a disagreement over doctrine to the point of consenting to their murder it clearly shows the heart is not lining up with the preaching.
So you are a prophet speaking for God now?
I already said I don't know if Calvin got saved or not. I can only discern by what he said verses what Jesus said and the two do not coinside. Calvin obviously did not understand the very gospel that he preached. This happens that the scripture might be fulfilled. Not all who say to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of My Father which is in heaven.
:godisgood:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You charge Wesley with lying and perjury, yet you do not even have the courtesy of providing reputable sources of either. Your credibility and Christian charity is running at a very low ebb with this reader.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
The truth of the matter appears to be that Wesley disagreed with the Calvinism Toplady was endorsing, and evidently published an abridgment of Toplady’s book. Wesley, by the account I read, simply stated in his own words the end of Toplady’s argument in that book. I see nothing that would suggest that Wesley lied or acted as if those were Toplady’s actual words, but again was putting in a concise form Wesley’s opinion in Wesley’s own words concerning the logical and truthful end of Toplady’s stated opinions.
It would appear to this reader, from what I have read, that Wesley was right on and that was precisely the truth of the end of the Calvinistic position of Toplady, like it or not.
It would appear to this reader, from what I have read, that Wesley was right on and that was precisely the truth of the end of the Calvinistic position of Toplady, like it or not.
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That would be wonderful if true.
Only if you think that God somehow sovereignly sins or some other kind of wackiness.
And still you haven't furnished any proof whatsoever that Calvin hated Servetus. But you desperately want that to be true.
You said that you couldn't consider Calvin a brother in the Lord. You said that he didn't possess eternal life -- that he wasa pretender.
Wonderful to report, Calvin stuck very close to what Jesus said.
Is there anyone you would "hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him".
If yes, is this because you love him?
It is questionable considering his death to Servetus remarks in the light of 1 John.
I believe Jesus said "love your enemies". Cal must have missed that one :thumbs:
:jesus:
You must have missed my use of Calvin's quote. I thought you read all of his letters.
Look again at my previous post.
:jesus:
Yeah, I must have. Please cite at least one instance wherein he says he hates anyone. You have come up empty ...again.
I never said that I read all his letters. A lot of them, not all. You are making things up again.
We can count on you to supply us with wour gems of wisdom. Actually, his works on soteriology are not so different from mainstream Historic Calvinism. Some like Kendall have tried to make a case that Calvin's views on soteriology were far removed from what Calvinists of modern times hold to. But it's not the case.
For instance, Beza is commonly said to have diverged from Calvin's views. But Calvin regarded him as a true friend. Beza was personally selected by Calvin as the man to lead the church and Protestant movement in Geneva. They knew each other's doctrinal stances very well. They were essentially at one.
But you say from the other corner of your mouth that you are a stronger Calvinist than I am. Go figure.
Do you believe the following?
1Sam 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.
1Sam 16:15 Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you.
1Sam 16:16 "Let our lord now command your servants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall play the harp with his hand, and you will be well."
1Sam 16:23 So it came about whenever the evil spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play it with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.
1Sam 18:10 Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.
1Sam 19:9 Now there was an evil spirit from the Lord on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.
Oh, ok I see the word game you are playing. :thumbsup:
Yeah, I know many people who say "I hope you get put to death, but I love you man! :thumbsup: "
Yeah, that is very logical.
Ignoring facts does not make your case.
:wavey:
