Calvinism or Arminianism

What's up Doc? I see ya got in finally.

I choose neither, they are both man derived idiologies. Each have some valid points and I have places I disagree with both.

 

I agree with LeBuick.
Beleivers do not fall into the quaint catagories, the typically Calvinist places others into.

Most Baptists are Non-Cal and Not Arminian, while shunning Pelaganism and Universalism.

 

It is all of God. The fact man must beleive does not take anything away from Gods sovereignty, if you understand man will not come to God unless God first come (or draw us). To believe is not a work. Believe - is not only acknowledging God but trusting that God will do All He said He would do concerning our great salvation.

Who was the great champion of the Gospel for the first 500 years before Augustine? Augustine was only one of many during those years who contended for the faith. Though I do give him GREAT credit for helping to alay some false ideologies creeping both up and into the Church (even though at the time He was in the corrupted Church of Rome) he still gets credit for many other falsehood coming into the church. Infant Baptism is just one of them.

 

Welcome The Doctor; to the chop block

If you don't understand that God in His Sovereignity made man very complex with a mind and a heart and soul. He also made

Him subject to vanity or in other words, when God in His Sovereignity made man He gave him a choice to choose good or evil

and when man does so he is doing what God give him, not something of his own. You see, there is the Spirit of God that

strives with man to do good and believe and there also is the spirit of satan that strives with man to do evil and disbelieve

God. God chose to make man this way so He could get Glory and Honor out of him when he chose God over satan. unfortuantly

man chose to disbelieve right in the beginning but God already knew this so He gave His Son before the fall for the sin of the

whole world before man had ever sinned at all, for Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world. So the

Bible says when God gave His son and then made man that it was "very good" so therefore God loved all when He gave His

son and not just a select special "few". So, when it says "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son" it was

before the fall and it was "very good" and all meant all. Thank God He had no respect of persons but gave us all a chance to

go to Heaven and not just the Calvinist.



2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

The Doctor is in! Welcome to the BB :thumbs:

A. Calvinism
B. Arminianism

I vote C!

 

Oh goody, another Calvin free will debate. Can anyone say Groundhog Day? I dont think a VCR tape could take this many replays. One thing we have learned over and over again is that they neither change anyone's mind, neither are they edifying.

 

New dog on the block Saturneptune. We got to break him in.

 

Salvation is either

(1) Monergistic

or

(2) Synergistic

Pick one.


There is no middle ground.

 

Agreed...but it is not calvinism or arminianism.

 

And BTW it was Pelagius that stirred the controversy, not Augustine. Augustine's famous prayer "Lord, grant to us what you require of us, and require of us what you will" was attacked by Pelagius and his followers. Likewise, it was Arminius and his followers that attacked the orthodox doctrines of the reformation.

Augustine didn't "invent" the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of God. Maybe the record gets blurred before Augustine, but the original record is clear, both in the New Testament and in the Old Testament.

 

Salvation is monergistic.

Romans 10:8-9 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Notice the above does not say: (thou hath saved thyself)

Even though belief preceeds salvation, God still does/did the saving work.

I heard, resisted, heard, resisted, heard, resisted....

Finally, I heard, I believed, and God saved me.

God gave us life.
God gave us His word.
God gave us His only begotten Son.
God gave us preachers.
God gave us the ability to hear, remember, think, reason, decide...
God gives salvation by grace, through faith. (No works involved, it is a free gift)

 

When He says, 'Let there be light', then there will be light, in the world or in our heart! Its all about God!

 

Blammo said:

.

Great, Blammo! Drive your very soul into that thought and don't move off of it for anything!

And regeneration preceeds belief. God does the saving work from beginning to end. It's all the work of God. The Holy Spirit puts the thirst in us (regeneration), and the water of the word (Gospel) satisfies it. We drink of it by believing. Either this is true or monergism is false.

But at the end of the day....God won!

And what did you finally hear? Wasn't it the voice of your Sheppard calling you into the fold? Why did you hear the voice and others have not heard that voice. Many hear the Gospel, but only some hear that voice. Who comes to Jesus? "All that the Father gives me shall come to me".

 

They all hear it is just that some love darkness rather than light or they say, I will wait a while and death catches them in their sins or some will say I will wait a while and the Lord will come back and it will be too late then.

Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world right before God made man and said it is very good and Loved His whole creation. In other words "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would BELIEVE should not perish but have eternal life. amen,

 

If I had ever thought there was something good about me, (something making me worth of saving), I would still be lost.

I'm not sure where you find "regenerated before belief" in the scriptures. For me, it seems these three verses describe the order of events:

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Yes, no matter what happens, God wins. Each time I resisted, God won and I lost. When I finally surrendered, God won and I won.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(And there is nothing we can do to change it)

It was the same gospel message I had heard before. The only difference was, this time, it was clear I was a sinner in need of a Saviour. The planting had been done, the watering continued, and God gave the increase.

 

You heard, and you resisted. Whom did you resist? And then you stopped resisting and believed. Why did you resist in the first place? Wasn't the Gospel disagreeable to your fallen, prideful nature? And did the Gospel suddenly become agreeable to your fallen, prideful nature? Who turned the key in your heart to make the Gospel agreeable to you? Did you turn the key, or was it the work of God?

Hint:

"saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:"

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

"But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

"And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:"

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:"

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?"

"whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

"But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God."

"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

"and the day star arise in your hearts"

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

 

No calvinst has ever honestly been able to prove this from Scripture. If you can, you will be the first. I won't hold my breath. Regeneration is simultaneous with faith in Christ, and THIS is what the Bible supports.