Calvinism the religous dictation of it

[romanbear]

Hi everyone
To me to be a Calvinist is to be prideful in your own intellect.To think that because one can claim to understand something so complicated makes one somehow more important than the rest.
To deny growth is necessary, is just plain ignorant.Calvinist believe that they are elected and they can sin all they want. It doesn't make any difference because, after they are elected they can't loose there salvation.They are saved without any decision on there part denying God of real love.Then they place him in a box and say that He can't kick you out.
Calvinism is believed a way to heaven with out having to do anything.Am I wrong?.Calvinist can hold on to unforgiveness because they over look Mathew 18. Calvinist insist that God is a dictator and we will be saved because it is God's will weather we want it or not.Calvinist deny the intelligence of God.Calvinist deny Him willful love.Calvinism is an interpretation by man.

God's word interprets it self and doesn't need mans point of view.It stands on it's own and it bears fruit without the help of John Calvin or Augustine or anyother so called great men.

Why do we have the intellectual ideas produced by John Calvin and others.It's because we want our ears tickled by men and do not wish to hear the Gospel.God's word does not give the sinner what he wants to hear.What it says, hurts the sinner, it cuts him to the quick.It's painful to read on our own, because we see truth in it.I have never seen much of anything that resembles truth in man or Calvinism.If God were to make Salvation so complicated to understand then there would only be Calvinist in heaven.Actually that isn't entirely true because they don't understand it either.It just sounds good to them.

Doesn't this sound hateful? It sounds critical doesn't it?.This whole post is to show you that if I want to enrage you I can.And those who would post such a thing is trying to dominate you in to believing as they do.First they take what you believe and trash it and do there best to make you feel all alone.Then 3 or 4 will start criticizing you making you feel all the more alone in your beliefs,Then you start to question your own faith which is what they want.Because when you start questioning your own faith then they have you right where they want you. The JW's use the same methods.They want to make sure if they can't completely brainwash you to there view they will at the very least confuse you in your own beliefs and cause doubt.IMO Calvinism is in the same catagory as communism in that we are not allowed to think on our own.We are not allowed to choose to Love God. We are made to love Him.Calvinism is just like the Catholic doctrine.It's forced on you and you have no choice.Am I wrong???????? Then prove it!
Romanbear

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by romanbear:
To me to be a Calvinist is to be prideful in your own intellect.To think that because one can claim to understand something so complicated makes one somehow more important than the rest.

IMO you have it exactly backward. Luther deals with this topic better than I can, so I'd rather quote from him than explain it myself.

AND if you are concerned about this, - that it is difficult to defend the mercy and justice of God, seeing that, He damns the undeserving, that is, those who are for that reason ungodly, because, being born in iniquity, they cannot by any means prevent themselves from being ungodly, and from remaining so, and being damned, but are compelled from the necessity of nature to sin and perish, as Paul saith, "We all were the children of wrath, even as others," (Eph. ii. 3.), when at the same time, they were created such by God Himself from a corrupt seed, by means of the sin of Adam, - Here God is to be honoured and revered, as being most merciful towards those, whom He justifies and saves under all their unworthiness: and it is to be in no small degree ascribed unto His wisdom, that He causes us to believe Him to be just, even where He appears to be unjust. For if His righteousness were such, that it was considered to be righteousness according to human judgment, it would be no longer divine, nor would it in any thing differ from human righteousness.

[...]

By the light of nature, it is insolvable how it can be just, that the good man should be afflicted and the wicked should prosper: but this is solved by the light of grace. By the light of grace it is insolvable, how God can damn him, who, by his own powers, can do nothing but sin and become guilty. Both the light of nature and the light of grace here say, that the fault is not in the miserable man, but in the unjust God: nor can they judge otherwise of that God, who crowns the wicked man freely without any merit, and yet crowns not, but damns another, who is perhaps less, or at least not more wicked. But the light of glory speaks otherwise. - That will shew, that God, to whom alone belongeth the judgment of incomprehensible righteousness, is of righteousness most perfect and most manifest; in order that we may, in the meantime, believe it, being admonished and confirmed by that example of the light of grace, which solves that, which is as great a miracle to the light of nature!

In other words, the Calvinist admits that they cannot explain why God seems unjust. They simply defer to the all-wise, all-knowing, perfectly just and perfectly righteous God, and admit they cannot explain how it all works. The Arminian, in sharp contrast, is not satisfied and feels compelled to use flawed human reason to figure out a way to explain why God is just. As a result, the Arminian and adds a bunch of inferences, explanations and nonsense to scripture, and then declares "I have it all figured out -- it all hinges on free will!"

As to your comment about sounding prideful or hateful, I hope you won't base your opinions of Calvinists on the behavior of someone like me who believes in election but is not educated in Calvinism. Besides, it has nothing to do with Calvinism. I'm just naturally ornery and sarcastic, and I was no different when I believed in free will. Hopefully God will scrub that part off before I leave this flesh.

 

[tyndale1946]

I don't serve my God to get saved in an eternal sense... I serve my God because I am already saved. There is definately a difference!... If I am obedient I will eat the good of the land and receive the blessings of God... If I am not I will suffer... But I will suffer in this life not in the life to come. I'm judged here and not there because Christ has stood in my room and stead... I am purchased with a price of his own precious sinless blood... I am not my own.

Cannot God put his disobedient children through hell here on earth... Read your Bible!... He has done it in the past and will still do it. Do you cease to be his child?... NEVER! If you belong to him you can no more cease to be his spiritual child then you can cease to be your natural fathers biological child.

I know of no one one here that says well now I'm saved I can do what I want those that are OSAS... We Primitive Baptist serve God out of reverence and fear but not the fear he can wipe me out at anytime... What kind of servitude is that?... We serve him as a loving master and Father but when you disobeyed if you had a father growing up didn't daddy spank or correct you. The rod and thy staff thou comfortest me!... How would you have felt if daddy let you get away with murder so to speak... Maybe sometimes we all put one over on the old man but try that with the Ancient Of Days How many brethren on here have been to Gods Holy Woodshed? ... Like the secular playwrite said "Your Arms Are To Short To Box With God"... The problem is Romanbear is you don't understand Calvinism or those brethren who believe in its doctrine!... IMHO!... Brother Glen

[ February 11, 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[William C]

The Arminian, in sharp contrast, is not satisfied and feels compelled to use flawed human reason to figure out a way to explain why God is just. As a result, the Arminian and adds a bunch of inferences, explanations and nonsense to scripture, and then declares "I have it all figured out -- it all hinges on free will!"

Yet, when an "Arminian" does present a sound scriptural argument, some Calvinist avoid their arguments by saying, "It does not merit a response." While other Calvinist who actually read and attempt a response admit it's difficulty while still avoiding the "Arminian's" scriptural arguments altogether. Case and point proven in the topic title "I'm sorry...START OVER"

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

[Rev. G]

romanbear:

You make a number of faulty statements, particulary those dealing with the issue of "freedom to sin." The large majority of those who hold Reformed views hold to "Lordship Salvation" (for lack of a better term).

Prideful? The doctrines of grace abase the pride of human beings (1 Cor. 1).

 

[romanbear]

Hi Npetreley;
Since I've been here all I've seen from Calvinist side is sarcasm and pride.Only two maybe three have not let the call of sarcasm come from there post.If it's a way to take out your frustrations on others then I would suggest that you think about how you look to someone who might be interested in what you are saying.Yes I'm guilty of the same, sure I can be sarcastic.Honestly what do you think of me when I am.
I disagree with Calvinism completely.mostly because I don't want the stigma that comes from being associated with anything that is Catholic. and most assurredly that it is a misguiding doctrine. This includes Luther.I'm not a protestant.You have to belong to something before you can protest it.I have nothing but disrespect for the Catholic doctrine none of it is true it's all a lie.Catholic doctrine has no fruit.Why?Because you can't get good fruit from a corrupt tree.Your mentor, turned his back on the protestants and helped one of his children to get accepted in to a convent to become a Nun.Why? because he wasn't man enough to take care of her himself.Was John Calvin even a Christian I don't know, God does.His doctrine to me is nothing more than a fabrication put together to over throw the Pope.In fact It's my belief that he had hopes of taking the Popes seat.It's been argued to the point of no return that it is not a Biblical doctrine never was or is.It's been supposed that I'm Arminian. I'm not. Jacobus Arminus was also a Catholic priest while some of his beliefs are similar to mine I do not follow his teaching.I follow that of Jesus Christ.I do not believe in works for salvation and those who would accuse me of this will have to pay for it someday.How ever I do works because it is the will of my Father in Heaven. And just as He has never been neglectful. How can I be that way to Him.I love Him above all else.I accepted Christ as my savior.I may have been drawn but I didn't have to accept it.I didn't for the first 16 years of my life and I felt the draw of the Holy spirit every time I heard the gospel preached every Sunday, Wednesday, and Saturday youth meetings.My parents took us to Church everytime it was open for something.I could recite many verses of the Bible but I did not believe.John Calvin Cannot tell me there is such a thing as irresistible grace because it's a lie.It wasn't until I surrendered my rebellion and my sin that I was saved.I tell you all this not because I'm proud but because I'm ashamed of the fact that I wasted all those 16 years for nothing but rebellion.Rebellion is talked about in the Bible it exists get over it and admit that you will never get to Heaven anyother way except through Jesus Christ one who when he draws you. You will have to accept or you will die.Nothing depresses me more than to fail to tell someone about the Love of my Savior.How He died for my sins and suffered for my rebellion to believe.The reason I post here is not because of Ego or to win a battle in debate.I really came here to plant the seed of the gospel among those who have like my self overlooked it pushed it aside and rebelled against it all for the sake of being like some men.
Be Christ Like He is my only only mentor
Romanbear

 

[romanbear]

Hy Tyndale;

A quote from you;
----------------------------------------------------------
We Primitive Baptist serve God out of reverence and fear but not the fear he can wipe me out at anytime...
-----------------------------------------------------------
My reply;

Coming from one who claims to believe in the power of God and then says to God you can't wipe me out!. Is treading on dangerous ground.What IMO you fail to realize is that God has no contract with Gentiles.Yes we are grafted in and as long as we are in we are adopted by Him and benefit from the same promises that the Jews have in that we are
righteous in His site but, what He wants!. I wouldn't be so bold as to tell God what He can or Cannot do. Just what He clearly says He will do in Mathew 18:22-35.We fear God because of His awesome Power and glory.What other fear is there.
I know first hand of My Lords correction he has corrected me more times than even I want to admit.He has came after me when I have strayed.Pleading with me to turn around.Everytime he has corrected me He has done so with Love that was apparent, that was visible from my own vision.So I wouldn't rebell.Why do you think He warned us not to boast against the Jews?Why do you discard what Christ him self said for that of what Paul said.We don't get our reward until we are raptured or resurrected.We still die don't we.Because its appointed to man once to die but after this?I'll let you answer.
Romanbear

 

[Frogman]

Romanbear,

You confuse reward with salvation, a result of your 'free-willism'

Also, fear of the Lord is reverence.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." I John 4.18

Bro. Glen did not say God could not take his life (in that sense of being 'wipe out') He is claiming the perfect love that is in Christ for the believer, for whom there is not fear:

"Herein is our love made perfect that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because as he is, so are we in this world." vs. 17

Our fear is from reverence, it cannot have in view the judgement unto condmnation, because the Christ of God in whom we believe has suffered that judgement and we are justified.

Now, we may fear for the deeds done in our flesh, which we shall suffer loss as at 1 Cor. 3.15; but we do not fear the condemnation of God; for we are in His Son Jesus and not in ourselves. To condemn us God would have disregard the Covenant of works and His Covenant of Grace which Christ completed concerning the former and thus ushered in the Latter.

This is why brethren are able to feel that confidence, for that is in Christ.

In the words of Christ we read of eternal life; this is what we name salvation; Can we proclaim we have eternal life in Jesus, only to proclaim it is not eternal but can be lost. This is where your theory of 'free-will' falls, because it logically follows anything a man does of his own will he will tire of doing when the gratification of that action is not immediate, then he will fall away, simply because his will is not strong enough to hold him (where he wasn't anyway if he made the words 'eternal life' to be a lie).

In 2 Tim. 2 Paul says:"...be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."

and goes on to say: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." vs. 13

If we are in Him and He is in us, then he cannot deny His presence in us.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[romanbear]

Hi Rev G;
A quote from you;
-------------------------------------------------------------
You make a number of faulty statements, particulary those dealing with the issue of "freedom to sin." The large majority of those who hold Reformed views hold to "Lordship Salvation" (for lack of a better term).
--------------------------------------------------------------
My Reply;
What do you say to one who is not reformed from your kind of theology.
I'm not, nor have ever been part of the Catholic Church to be reformed of.
The Catholic Church was not and is not the oldest form of Christianity.I'm that kind of Christian that the Catholic Church has been trying to get rid of since it's beginning.I'm that God fearing Christian that is bold enough to say that my doctrine doesn't come from man but God's word.God's word interprets it self why do I need some priest or Pastor to explain it to me .Can't I think for myself can't I read God's word and pray for understanding.Why do people dislike Bereans Acts 17:11
Romanbear

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The thing is, romanbear, that everybody thinks just like you. They think that they possess the absolute truth, so you can't prove anything by claiming to believe what the Bible teaches because we all do! That's why it irks me when people come here from time to time and refer to themselves as "Biblicists." Everybody claims that title. In order to determine who the Biblicist really is is to search the Scriptures, like the Bereans whom you mentioned. Sometimes, this involves communicating with other Christians and engaging in an honest debate with an open mind.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Frogman;

You are one of the few that claim calvinism who haven't ("towards me") used sarcasm's in your post and I respect that.I can see you have confidence in your own doctrine.
I read your post to see what you have to say with that respect.But Just as respectfully we cannot discard Mathew 18:22-35 or
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

So what do we have, is it a contradiction?Or simply a misunderstanding.If the latter on who's part?.

If we could throw these out you'd be persuasive, but we can't just ignore them. Claim they mean something else.To Say God has no power to kick us out from his own is having no Fear Of God.Fear Is that which gives us the motovation to study Him to get to know Him.And most of all to Love Him.Some say you can't love some one you fear but this isn't so. When I was a child I feared my parents because I respected there authority.I still Loved them .Actually I still fear them just as I love them.Quite a statement for an old man but In my experince it's true.

Romanbear

 

[romanbear]

Hi P.B.
I don't believe that debate is the learning tool you might suggest.I've seen people give up and walk away never to enter another debate because they realize that it's about Ego and who's winning more than truth.Debate is about pride when sarcasm enters.I'm trully sorry that you won't see the truth of what I'm saying.But only see sarcasm as a tool the drive off truth you can't face.
Romanbear

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by romanbear:
I disagree with Calvinism completely.mostly because I don't want the stigma that comes from being associated with anything that is Catholic.

Was Calvin a Catholic? I had no idea. And you completely lost me with your comments about Luther.

Originally posted by romanbear:
Your mentor ...

Calvin is not my mentor. I haven't even studied Calvin. I happen to agree with Luther on most of his points in Bondage of the Will, but he's not my mentor, either.

Originally posted by romanbear:
because he [Calvin] wasn't man enough to take care of her himself

I find it ironic that the thrust of your post seems to be that Calvinism must be false because it produces ill will (as if that can cancel out the scriptural support). Then you back up your assertions by alleging something nasty about Calvin, and saying you don't want the "stigma" of being Catholic?

I don't recall if you were included, but others have been fighting Calvinism by alleging he personally murdered a heretic. This is a curious method of discrediting Calvinism on the basis that it produces ill will.

Regardless, if you could prove both Calvin and Luther were chainsaw killers it wouldn't change my opinion about what scripture means because I don't place my trust in Calvin or Luther.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Npetreley;
I know nothing I say would change your mind.I just keep casting that seed your way on purpose.You see God can Change hard ground to good ground.And you never know someday it might just dig in and start growing.Never the less never let it be said that I didn't at least try by casting it your way.What I said about Calvin was not an accusation it was admitted by him in histories of his protest of the Catholic Church.I just got to ask if you have never studied John Calvin Then how can you claim to be a Calvinist.
Romanbear

 

[Grasshopper]

You see God can Change hard ground to good ground.

Can He without your permission? That sounds Calvanistic. By the way these doctrines were taught long before John Calvin.

 

[romanbear]

hi Grasshopper;

actually it isn't.You see, it's not God will make you a Christian. it's will He.Of corse God can do anything He wants. He's God is He not?He is the Supream intelligence the most High the only one who deserves our Love,The creator the master of the universe.Is there anything our God cannot do.I don't believe there is. So why create robot Love when He could have the real thing by giving us choice and sitting back to see what man would do with it would all choose to go to hell.or would they after being presented with the facts of eternal life choose love and the life everlasting in peaceful bliss.Which would you choose? No kungfoo allowed!after all I am an old man.Not by any means a master.

Romanbear

 

[Hardsheller]

Romanbear,

I didn't become a Calvinist by studying John Calvin. I became a Calvinist by studying Southern Baptist History. When I discovered that the majority of men who formed the Southern Baptist Convention in 1845 were believers in the Doctrines of Grace (commonly called Calvinism) I was driven by curiosity to understand why that statistic had changed.

What I discovered through research and Bible Study was that Southern Baptists had abandoned their theological roots and changed their theology to make it more palatable to modern man.

I am an Historical Southern Baptist of the same ilk that founded our great Convention! Call me a Calvinist if you will but I too haven't studied the man.

I've just studied my denomination's history and the Bible.

 

[romanbear]

Hi hardseller

Aren't you curious enough to want to know the roots of a doctrine.What it was originally like in the beginning how it has changed.It has changed if I read what Calvin says compared to what I read hear at B.B. com.Some who claim to be Calvinist don't really know what it really is everyone just take others word for it.I'm a Christian I study to know just what my faith is suppose to be.Shouldn't we all.Or are we to just sit back and take other peoples word for it. With out trying to sound sarcastic don't you think that this putting your faith in man,rather than Jesus Christ.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I'm not saying your on a path that leads to death.Only that you should becareful.Men's hearts are full of deceit.Do you really believe that southern Baptist are all Calvinist.When most don't even know what it is.

Romanbear

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by romanbear:
What I said about Calvin was not an accusation it was admitted by him in histories of his protest of the Catholic Church.I just got to ask if you have never studied John Calvin Then how can you claim to be a Calvinist.
Romanbear

I do not claim to be a Calvinist. I do not avoid the title because I disagree with it. I simply have never studied Calvinism and do not wish to erroneously state that I adhere to a doctrine about which I am ignorant. Based on what I read here, I seem to agree with Calvinism on several points, and perhaps I agree on enough of the most important points that one might call me a Calvinist. So if others say I am, maybe they're right. But I won't claim to be one unless I study Calvinism and see if it's appropriate to do so.

I used to believe strongly in free will. I tried to write an apologetics piece with free will as the foundation, but I couldn't finish it because every string of logic led me to conclusions that were either absent in scripture or contradicted by scripture. IMO, the Holy Spirit was at work there.

Later, a tv teacher said something about Luther's Bondage of the Will that sounded odd. So I ordered a copy and read it to see if the teacher was accurately portraying what was in the book. (I heartily recommend it. Get the one J. I. Packer helped translate, which is the easy to read, unlike the ones published on the web). It not only confirmed what I had learned from scripture, it filled in many gaps and answered some remaining questions.

 

[npetreley]

Romanbear,

I'm nasty sometimes, but I'm not trying to be nasty by saying this: Will you PLEASE tap the spacebar once or twice after punctuation like periods and question marks? It's really hard to read your text.