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Calvinism vs Free Will/Arminism, should they be in different denominations?
- Thread starter saturneptune
- Start date
Brother Bob
New Member
Jesus loves me yes I know for the Bible tells me so. Amen
BBob
BBob
To all who have an ear:
As I have been in the process of studying these doctrines and ramifications for over 30 years, as I have gone through 4 seminary programs (2 of which were outside my own tradition/denomination), the two doctrines that I have observed "trip up" most people are: the absolute Sovereignty of God as written in the 1789 Baptist Confession of Faith; and the total depravity of man. These two when studied at length and in depth will make the difference (if someone is willing to put aside their pre-conceived ideas). You see a lot of our theology we got from former pastors like "The Rev. Dr. Runamuck" who believed X, Y, & Z. And if was not one of those nasty old "Calvinists" then it must be wrong. Much of our theology is second generation and not tried and true for ourselves.
Where most make a major mistake on the "git go" is starting with the "Limited Atonement" idea. But, if we can come to some kind of knowledge of who God is and how bad off man is, then axiomatically the other parts seem to fall into place.
The trouble lies in the fact that we really (although we claim inerrancy) DO NOT like, believe, or understand what the Bible says about God's total sovereignty.
Another trouble lies in the fact that we really DO NOT want to believe Eph. 2 that "we are dead in trespasses and sins" spiritually. And that this tints and taints every fiber of our being with a broken and corrupt nature--even our wills.
We really want to believe as the Methodists do that there really is a little bit of good in some of us. That is true, man can do good. But, go on to think that every good dead has a bad or sinful motive behind it. Sin is not something we do, it is SOMETHING WE ARE IN OUR VERY NATURES.
It seems to me that these are the places to start; as that brother asked above.
FWIW! I remain fraternally yours!
sdg!
rd
As I have been in the process of studying these doctrines and ramifications for over 30 years, as I have gone through 4 seminary programs (2 of which were outside my own tradition/denomination), the two doctrines that I have observed "trip up" most people are: the absolute Sovereignty of God as written in the 1789 Baptist Confession of Faith; and the total depravity of man. These two when studied at length and in depth will make the difference (if someone is willing to put aside their pre-conceived ideas). You see a lot of our theology we got from former pastors like "The Rev. Dr. Runamuck" who believed X, Y, & Z. And if was not one of those nasty old "Calvinists" then it must be wrong. Much of our theology is second generation and not tried and true for ourselves.
Where most make a major mistake on the "git go" is starting with the "Limited Atonement" idea. But, if we can come to some kind of knowledge of who God is and how bad off man is, then axiomatically the other parts seem to fall into place.
The trouble lies in the fact that we really (although we claim inerrancy) DO NOT like, believe, or understand what the Bible says about God's total sovereignty.
Another trouble lies in the fact that we really DO NOT want to believe Eph. 2 that "we are dead in trespasses and sins" spiritually. And that this tints and taints every fiber of our being with a broken and corrupt nature--even our wills.
We really want to believe as the Methodists do that there really is a little bit of good in some of us. That is true, man can do good. But, go on to think that every good dead has a bad or sinful motive behind it. Sin is not something we do, it is SOMETHING WE ARE IN OUR VERY NATURES.
It seems to me that these are the places to start; as that brother asked above.
FWIW! I remain fraternally yours!
sdg!
rd
Rev. Lowery
New Member
Rhetorician
Is absolutely and 10000000% right.
Every good thing including the reasons behind our acceptance of Christ is for selfish reasons. Meaning its not all out of love but more outta I get to go to Heaven.
Romans 3:9-11 (KJV)
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Is absolutely and 10000000% right.
Every good thing including the reasons behind our acceptance of Christ is for selfish reasons. Meaning its not all out of love but more outta I get to go to Heaven.
Romans 3:9-11 (KJV)
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
I know this isn't a problem specific to the USA, but I can't help but think that one of the problems is that people adopt the notion that it is self-evident that God created all men equal, and extend that to mean that God must treat all men equally or else He is not a just God.
I believe that we, as men, must approach situations under the assumption that all are favored by God, but that's because we're not God. We didn't create people for our own purpose, pleasure and glory. We don't know what God has in mind for one person or another.
But God DOES know, He did create us, and He has the right to treat one differently than another.
Nicholas25
New Member
I attend a Free Will Baptist Church. However I am still a Baptist. Not all Free Will believers are Methodist or Church of Christ or some other denomination. Other than the eternal security issue, Free Will Baptist and Baptist are pretty much the same.
Nicholas25,
Do you really believe that man has a "Free Will" and can come to God when he wants to come and can loose his salvation?
Have you read mine and the other posts above and thought through the ramifications and implications?
sdg!
rd
Do you really believe that man has a "Free Will" and can come to God when he wants to come and can loose his salvation?
Have you read mine and the other posts above and thought through the ramifications and implications?
sdg!
rd
Rhetorician said "Sin is not something we do, it is SOMETHING WE ARE IN OUR VERY NATURES."
This truth identifies what is missing in arminian theology - the extent of depravity.
An arminian would say that while man can not attain unto righteousness because he commits sin, he nevertheless can BELIEVE unto righteousness. If he understood that man's NATURE is bound by sin, he would realize that sinful man can neither work nor believe unto righteousness.
It's only throught a CHANGE of nature, the new birth, which is wrought by God, that man is inabled to believe.
This truth identifies what is missing in arminian theology - the extent of depravity.
An arminian would say that while man can not attain unto righteousness because he commits sin, he nevertheless can BELIEVE unto righteousness. If he understood that man's NATURE is bound by sin, he would realize that sinful man can neither work nor believe unto righteousness.
It's only throught a CHANGE of nature, the new birth, which is wrought by God, that man is inabled to believe.
BTW IMO there should be separate denominations. The SBC has been mixed A/C for so long I don't think the Founders organization will ever get it back to its roots.
I'm independent so I don't have a lot invested either way. Now what to do about the IFBs, well that's a head-scratcher.
I'm independent so I don't have a lot invested either way. Now what to do about the IFBs, well that's a head-scratcher.
Bill Brown
New Member
On one hand those churches that are part of the Founders Movement should pull up stakes and form a new Baptist association. On the other hand they are making progress in the SBC, albeit slowly. If I was forced to pick I would be in favor of pulling out.
Nicholas25
New Member
Rhetorician: I hate to post on this topic because most peoples replys always get misunderstood by someone and it starts a war on here. But since you asked me a question I will reply. No I don't believe that one can get saved whenever they want to. As you know the Bible says in Matthew that the Spirit has to draw us. I do believe that the Lord can bring conviction upon people and they don't respond to it, they fight it off if you will. I belive this is scary because God will not alway convict. I do belive God's grace and mercy go along, long way, but I do belive one can return to the state they were in before coming to Christ. Please don't bash me in the ground for my answer. I feel as Christians we can agree to disagree on a lot of things. I have many Christian friends who belive OSAS and I love and respect them. I love all Christians and don't get caught up in the denomination thing as much as some do. I hope this answers your question but if you don't understand my stance or need more info, simply ask and I will give it. Thanks.
Nicholas
25 years old
Nicholas
25 years old
Isn't it amazing that only Christians know this for sure!
Brother Bob
New Member
Yea, but what makes a Christian is the question of the day, and yesterday and day before etc.
