Calvinism's view of regeneration is unsupported by scripture.

Regeneration is the process in which man is made alive by God or as is refered to as new birth. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe regeneration is an act of God's grace, but we disagree as to the means by which regeneration comes. Arminians believe, as scripture clearly teaches, that we are made alive or regenerated through faith. While Calvinist believe that faith comes through regeneration. These passages seem to support the Arminian view that we are regenerated through faith in the word of truth:

Col. 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

1 Peter 1:23 
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal. 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

How do Calvinists deal with these passages and what passages support the belief that spiritual regeneration comes before faith?

 

1)Col. 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Bill:
You really didn't deal with this verse. It specifically says we are raise through faith. We are not raised so that we can have faith. How do you deal with this.

2)1 Peter 1:23 
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

Ken:
A regenerated person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The usual means that He uses is the Word of God, except for cases such as infants that die in the womb or at an early age.

Bill:
I agree that a person in regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the means of the faith which come from the hearing the Word of God.

We are raised or made alive by the Spirit who comes through faith. Do you agree with this too?

3)James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Ken:
It says that God brought us forth by His will, not ours. Also see my answer to 2) above. In fact, that is one of the strongest pro-doctrines of God's amazing grace verses in the Bible. Thanks for using a verse that destroys your own false viewpoint.

Bill:
Only in your own mind Ken. This verse is simply saying God brings us (those who believe) forth by the word of truth. This is telling us how God regenerates us through the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. Notice it doesn't say that He makes us alive so that we can believe the gospel, it says he makes us alive through the gospel.

4)Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

5)Gal. 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/qb][/QUOTE]1)A regenerated person willingly comes to Christ in repentance and faith.

Read it. He approaches his subject with the same presupposition that all Calvinist approach the text with, "Election brings me faith, and faith is the evidence of my election." This is unfounded in Scripture therefore his entire sermon has no foundation.

Election is never spoken of a bringing us faith. "Faith comes from hearing..."

 

Ken, you really haven't deal with the arguments nor the scriptures which clearly teach that we are made alive through faith which comes by the word of the gospel.

How do you deal with these passages?

Anyone?

 

Have you read all of my posts over the last several months? Obviously not. This post is not about all of those arguements it about these.

First, granting the Gentiles repentance simply means he has chosen to allow them entrance into to the covenant through faith and repentance. You can't repent if He hasn't chosen to reveal the gospel of repentance to your people now can you.

Second, I'm dealing with the issue of election on the other post right now.

I have dealt systematically with each of the Calvinistic proof texts for "total inability" and it is quite clear that no where in scripture does it teach that man is unable to see, hear, understand, and believe except in regard to hardened Israel. This argument has yet to be sufficiently answered.

 

Have you read all of my posts over the last several months? Obviously not. This post is not about all of those arguements it about these.

First, granting the Gentiles repentance simply means he has chosen to allow them entrance into to the covenant through faith and repentance. You can't repent if He hasn't chosen to reveal the gospel of repentance to your people now can you.

Second, I'm dealing with the issue of election on the other post right now.

I have dealt systematically with each of the Calvinistic proof texts for "total inability" and it is quite clear that no where in scripture does it teach that man is unable to see, hear, understand, and believe except in regard to hardened Israel. This argument has yet to be sufficiently answered.

 

Your wrong, I only expect people to address my arguments instead of diverting the arguments and ignoring the scripture. When someone fails to address the issues I call them on it. You don't like that because I'm constantly having to do that with you because of your tendency to resort to meaningless rhetoric that unfortunately you have pulled me into once again in this post.

Good. Now read His Word.

 

Your wrong again. I was convinced to believe Calvinism once and I could be convinced once again. As a matter of fact I want you and anyone else to try and convince me by actually dealing with my arguments instead of dealing with all this mumbo jumbo. (that greek for "crud")

 

First, let me say this is a very good post Russell. You don't degrade me and you honestly and clearly deal with each of my arguments. I will extend you that same curtiousy and hopefully we can both leave this discussion with more understanding of these passages. I sincerely thank you.

Thank you for the clarification. I can see your point.

That condition is faith. Faith comes before the Spirit, that is clear throughout the text. Many in the gospels express faith in Christ who have yet to recieve the indwelling of the Spirit.

Arminians believe that their is a general calling of the Spirit which is geniune to all men (most Calvinists agree). This calling can be resisted (most Calvinists agree with this). Then the Spirit indwells those who respond in faith to the general call. (Calvinists insist that the general call is not sufficient but there must be an effectual call as well. I don't see that supported by scripture. I don't see a distinction between the general and "effectual" calling of the spirit, except as it relates to the unique divine calling of the apostles who specially were appointed.

Russell I would agree except look closer at the verse:

11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Those that it says "having been" meaning that the phrase that follows has already taken place. Though I do see your point, for these reasons I still disagree

The reason I point out this text is because it shows the means God has selected to work through in bringing new birth. The word of truth as we see in Eph. 1:13 is the "gospel of salvation." This is the means through which we are born again. Yes, the spirit is involved every time the word of truth is presented, but this is the general calling of the spirit that can be resisted by mankind (Acts 7:51).

I see this as saying it was God's will to make people alive through the word of truth which is what brings faith--"faith comes by hearing." But I can see your point as well. The point I was really pointing out is that God chose the word of truth, the gospel, as the means by which one is made alive. Therefore, one is made alive through the gospel, not the gospel is made alive through regeneration.

Russell, notice what this passage says. It says you truted or had faith in Christ after they heard the word of truth. And after they believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. This is consistant with the passages in John and Acts that show people with faith before the indwelling of the Spirit. Faith precedes the work of the Spirit, that is quite clear in the text, therefore we should understand "less clear" with these much clearer verses in mind.

Let me give some examples of these very clear passages:

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things; and [so is] the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 8:
Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: 16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit

John 7:
31 But of the multitude many believed on him... He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water. 39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet [given]; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

As is obvious here one can believe without the indwelling of the Spirit.

Where does scripture make this convenient distinction between the regenerating work of the spirit that takes place indendant of faith and the "promise, indwelling, sealing" work of the spirit which does come through faith. The passages I have mention do speak of being brough forth and being made alive through the word of truth which is believed upon through faith. I just don't see your view supported unless you trying to force it to support a presupposition.

So too, the gospel and the genernal calling of the Spirit goes wherever and however the Lord leads it. I often feel lead by the Spirit to witness or teach and sometimes the Spirit convicts those I speak with and other times they resist the Spirit just as those in Acts 7:51.

This passage confirms a common point of agreement among us: rebirth is a work of God's Spirit. It doesn't address the means that God works through to accomplish this rebirth until verse 16 when is speaks of "whosoever believes". How is one born again? By believing.

This post is getting too long so I'll pick up those other passages as soon as I get a chance. God bless. And thanks again for actually engaging in a meaningful discussion instead of resorting to MUMBO JUMBO.

 

Calvinist teach that we are born spiritually dead. I'm not debating this point I'm just wondering where the Bible ever actually says we are born dead.

The bible says that we were dead in our trespasses and sin in which we once LIVED.

I agree that man is born sinful and guilty of sin and in need of a savior, but does it really ever teach that we are born dead, or could it be that being "dead" is similar to hardening in that it's something that describes someone who lives in sin and rebellion to God for a period of time.

Calvinists just seem to jump to the conclusion that man is born as depraved as someone who has continually refused to listen to the gospel and has lived in sinful rebellion. I'm not arguing that Calvinists think depravity means people are as sinful as they could be, but I am arguing that Calvinists think they are just as "unwilling" from birth as they are after being hardened in sin. That doesn't seem consistant with Romans 1 or any text of scripture.

Just something to think about .