Calvinists and any other friendly to the doctrines of grace respond here!

[Iconoclast]

In a previous exchange on Benjamins question we disagreed to a point where he believed my response to be completely unbiblical.
how do you see it?




QuoteDo you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
and Hebrews 7;
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.


Quote:
and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected

Benjamin...this is a good question...
I never say it that way....

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

Benjamin....

Quote:
and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me

I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.

 

[preacher4truth]

In a previous exchange on Benjamins question we disagreed to a point where he believed my response to be completely unnbiblical.
how do you see it?




QuoteDo you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
and Hebrews 7;
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.


Quote:
and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected

Benjamin...this is a good question...
I never say it that way....

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

Benjamin....

Quote:
and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me

I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.

Good points. We simply preach Christ, His elect will respond, 2 Timothy 2:10, and none of His will be lost. There is no "darkness" in the message in which we preach. We simply preach the Gospel. We preach, and His are saved. There is no presentation of "if you're elect" but instead, and again, the Gospel is preached, and His respond unto salvation. Simple dependence upon Him. We know no other way brother.

- Peace to you

 

[annsni]

Your responses sound excellent and pretty much the way I'd deal with it as well!! Thanks for writing everything out though!! It's nice to see how other people discuss the issues as well.

 

[Tom Butler]

Iconoclast, this is excellent. I'm sure many people who witness have found that there will be attempts to chase rabbits, distract you from what you're doing, or just plain try to get you to change the subject.

You have provide some good examples of how to keep the conversation on track.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Amen. We preach Law and Gospel. Explaining in as much detail as we can the awfulness of sin and consequences thereof. Then the Good News that Jesus came to bear sin of the world - not just Jews but Gentiles, too. Woohoo!!

I do my best to convince people of these truths. But the light will not come on unless God's Spirit regenerates their hearts. They can be any sort of sinner (Rom 1-3 speaks of reprobate, rational, reformed and religious types) but they will not respond in true faith and bear fruit of repentance unless the Spirit does the work.

It is not what man does that counts; it is what God does. Then man, those truly born again, will do what we are appointed to do - a life of good works.

It is by grace you have been saved, through faith. Such [saving] faith is not found within us; it is the gift of God. It does not come from our works, so that no one can boast.

For we are GOD'S work (not our own), created in Christ Jesus for US to work good deeds that God decreed in eternity past for us to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen. We preach Law and Gospel. Explaining in as much detail as we can the awfulness of sin and consequences thereof. Then the Good News that Jesus came to bear sin of the world - not just Jews but Gentiles, too. Woohoo!!

I do my best to convince people of these truths. But the light will not come on unless God's Spirit regenerates their hearts. They can be any sort of sinner (Rom 1-3 speaks of reprobate, rational, reformed and religious types) but they will not respond in true faith and bear fruit of repentance unless the Spirit does the work.

It is not what man does that counts; it is what God does. Then man, those truly born again, will do what we are appointed to do - a life of good works.

It is by grace you have been saved, through faith. Such [saving] faith is not found within us; it is the gift of God. It does not come from our works, so that no one can boast.

For we are GOD'S work (not our own), created in Christ Jesus for US to work good deeds that God decreed in eternity past for us to do.

Good Post Dr.Bob,
well written direct and to the point:thumbsup:

 

[baptisttom]

I read and really don't post, but to my brother who wrote the original post, I say a hearty AMEN!!! As one preacher friend once told me as I was making my journey toward a proper understanding of the Doctrines of Grace -- "It's flat out hard to argue with an open Bible!"

 

[Iconoclast]

I read and really don't post, but to my brother who wrote the original post, I say a hearty AMEN!!! As one preacher friend once told me as I was making my journey toward a proper understanding of the Doctrines of Grace -- "It's flat out hard to argue with an open Bible!"

:thumbsup: Well yes exactly. If you just let the bible speak it seems simple if we just trust and obey.
God is God.....we are not!

 

[Tom Bryant]

Good points. We simply preach Christ, His elect will respond, 2 Timothy 2:10, and none of His will be lost. There is no "darkness" in the message in which we preach. We simply preach the Gospel. We preach, and His are saved. There is no presentation of "if you're elect" but instead, and again, the Gospel is preached, and His respond unto salvation. Simple dependence upon Him. We know no other way brother.

- Peace to you

Good stuff! We really do well to stay away from the rabbit trails in our witnessing to unbelievers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbsup: Well yes exactly. If you just let the bible speak it seems simple if we just trust and obey.
God is God.....we are not!

Is that a little known word called "Obedience" ?

I would add though that reading the scriptures can & will confuse you (The Devil wishes to confound you be twisting word & meaning) ..... so I pray to the HS prior to cracking open a bible to have His enlightenment.

 

[Iconoclast]

Good posts,

:thumbsup::thumbs::wavey:looks like we all are pretty much in agreement.Imagine that.

 

[Benjamin]

In a previous exchange on Benjamins question we disagreed to a point where he believed my response to be completely unbiblical.
how do you see it?

You going to pursue an exchange using my name and repost a disagreement then try to show some integrity and repost my responses to it...

Here is the “real” argument in context: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72690

Below is just one of my posts trying to hold Iconoclast to a logical deductive argument while he engages in various methods of evasions and circular arguments in his efforts to side step the subject of the OP, to derail the tread, and for lack of better words (rhetorically and deceitfully winks in self-presumed cleverness and pride of his ability to fall back on semantics thinking to avoid any logical conclusions on what he has admitted about his Doctrine of “pre-selected” Grace) while he strives about to continue with his teaching others his “bible truth” which is equal to nothing less than a heretical-hyper determinist view that some men have no hope because they have not been pre-selected:





Post #184:



Try to follow the argument Iconoclast:

Benjamin:
Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?* I would like to see how you handle a situation where a person is struggling with faith ...actually, on second thought I wouldn't and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me.

Originally posted by Iconoclast:
3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

Response by Benjamin:
Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?

It’s a legitimate question Iconoclast, and you revealed by your method of witnessing that you indeed use window dressings to cover up your “bible truth” that “you don’t know if they are elect or not” and “God has not planned to save everyone”. THAT means you believe THAT grace is limited to the “pre-selected few”… REALLY!



Put together the dots and you will see exactly why I said, “your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few”



Your presentation of the Gospel and communicating is full of deceit, you clearly show you are not up front with your witnessing above unless they scoff at you, then you proclaim that you will lay it on them that basically/practically they DO have an excuse not to believe because of your warped belief that God might not have pre-selected them as elect. BUT that’s not what the Bible says, the Bible says all God ways are judgment, that none have an excuse, that the offer of grace extends to all His creatures AND He is Truth in this matter and all matters. All this is covered in the OP but instead of following an argument you want to play games of circular arguments. (You say, “Where did I proclaim pre-selection/fore-election?!?” ) Or is it that you struggle with the word “real”?



Now read my final reply below to your example of witnessing, note your deception through the window dressing, (do you know what I mean by window dressing?) and note the relevance of the question of whether or not you would lie to your own children or tell them your “bible truth” and hope that they are pre-selected. What if they “tried to mock or scoffed at you”? Is it then they get your “bible truth” about election? I’m sorry if you can not see the deceit in “your ways” and how it is rooted in lie after lie all to hold on to and support your false manmade doctrine. Answer the question. Do you have a double standard or not?

Benjamin:
The Gospel is not limited to a “multitude” of “pre-chosen and elected persons” it is offered for “whosoever will” believe. You were very careful to window dress how you would preach to the lost while cleverly disguising your doctrine although strangely you certainly have no problem announcing the “Doctrine of Pre-Selected Grace” here in an open forum, but supposedly you would not directly point to your believe that some have not been pre-selected and thereby have no hope, but I suspect *#6 reveals to me everything I need to know about how quickly you would turn on a person who was struggling with their faith and gave you a little static. I give the lost “real” hope because I tell them of the truth of a loving God's promise made to all His creatures, no matter if they mock, scoff or whatever.

I told my children the truth of our Loving God and “His way” of offering forgiveness for whosoever will believe His Truth. I didn’t have to hold anything back or disguise my belief; I put it all on the table for whosoever I am witnessing to. Friend, God does not have a double standard!

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Benjamin thought that this was darkness, and i was a child of the devil,or something along that line.

Nice try, but NO, Iconoclast it was another tread that I repeated Jesus’ Words about being a child of the devil that you apparently took personal; maybe because the shoe must have fit?…

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72844&page=4




Here is it again:




Post # 33




Anyone (highlighted for clarity) who attributes sin and evil to God is a liar and a child of the Devil, the truth is not them!



Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


Jesus, the Word, had a reply for those who attributed sin to Him: John 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?


He told us who would be saying such lies:


John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


God did not create, decree, ordain sin or evil, it came from the Devil, he was responsible:


Eze 28:14-18

(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


The Devil is the one who lied in the garden and told men they could be as gods, and the Devil and his helpers attempt to attribute sin and evil onto God today, they say the Word is not Truth. They say we can not seek God.


Amo 5:14

(14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.


The Devil brought sin onto the world and Jesus, the Word was manifested for this purpose and those who believe in the Goodness of God are the ones who have the truth.


1Jn 3:8

(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


This is the message of the Word which God’s sons hear:


1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.



…And this is for the message of the Devil and his liars, who tell lies and attempt to hide it within their words:


Isa 5:20-21

(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

(21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

________________________________________________________

 

[preacher4truth]

Good stuff! We really do well to stay away from the rabbit trails in our witnessing to unbelievers.

Amen and thanks. Ever notice how Jesus got on "rabbit trails" after preaching to save His? When those who weren't His, who relentlesly attacked and didn't believe, He went into explaining "election" in a sense via "You are not my sheep...you don't believe my Word because you are not my sheep...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" So this was allowable in public ministry at a point.

 

[Aaron]

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Benjamin]

Amen and thanks. Ever notice how Jesus got on "rabbit trails" after preaching to save His? When those who weren't His, who relentlesly attacked and didn't believe, He went into explaining "election" in a sense via "You are not my sheep...you don't believe my Word because you are not my sheep...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" So this was allowable in public ministry at a point.

Jesus never preached election to be pre-determined, that salvation/grace is "really" only offered for the pre-selected few; He said if He be lifted up He will draw ALL men. He wasn’t trying to create "rabbit trails" that suggest some have no hope as you do! What you do is nothing less than twisting His Word to force fit it into a dark doctrine of pre-selection; Jesus brought light into all the world and gave “real” hope for all men. Jesus never used deceitful means (the kind of rabbit trails you refer to) to deliver His message/promise to the world! Jesus is "Truth" and Light.

 

[quantumfaith]

Jesus never preached election to be pre-determined, that salvation/grace is "really" only offered for the pre-selected few; He said if He be lifted up He will draw ALL men. He wasn’t trying to create "rabbit trails" that suggest some have no hope as you do! What you do is nothing less than twisting His Word to force fit it into a dark doctrine of pre-selection; Jesus brought light into all the world and gave “real” hope for all men. Jesus never used deceitful means (the kind of rabbit trails you refer to) to deliver His message/promise to the world! Jesus is "Truth" and Light.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

The "sheep" are the Israelites who believed God and were waiting for their Messiah.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That's why Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice. They (the Jews) recognized Jesus as Messiah because of their faith in God and the scriptures.



But....there would be more sheep to come.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus would be lifted up to draw ALL men (not just Jews) to Him.

Then there would neither be Jew nor Greek, but one man in Christ Jesus.


It's important to realize who Jesus is talking to in order to understand what He is saying.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus never preached election to be pre-determined, that salvation/grace is "really" only offered for the pre-selected few; He said if He be lifted up He will draw ALL men. He wasn’t trying to create "rabbit trails" that suggest some have no hope as you do! What you do is nothing less than twisting His Word to force fit it into a dark doctrine of pre-selection; Jesus brought light into all the world and gave “real” hope for all men. Jesus never used deceitful means (the kind of rabbit trails you refer to) to deliver His message/promise to the world! Jesus is "Truth" and Light.

Oh, you don't know Scripture.

Your bad.

And they (His sheep) weren't only limited to the nation of Israel.

Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus never preached election to be pre-determined, that salvation/grace is "really" only offered for the pre-selected few; He said if He be lifted up He will draw ALL men. He wasn’t trying to create "rabbit trails" that suggest some have no hope as you do! What you do is nothing less than twisting His Word to force fit it into a dark doctrine of pre-selection; Jesus brought light into all the world and gave “real” hope for all men. Jesus never used deceitful means (the kind of rabbit trails you refer to) to deliver His message/promise to the world! Jesus is "Truth" and Light.

Hello Benjamin, thanks for posting those links.

Jesus certainly did preach election as he came as the Elect Servant spoken of by Isaiah. Grace is offered to" all men who hear the gospel".
The fact that many remain in rebellion does not mean that grace was not really offered.
We offer the gospel to all men everywhere. We know that judgement day is coming, we know that all men will not be saved.
Bible truth is not dark doctrine ..as you say. It is revealed truth.
When God only chose one nation out of all the nations in the OT..was that "dark doctrine"?

1Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

3Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Election of a nation[some of whom were saved] or election of individuals are God's way of saving His people. Paul called it a blessing and gave thanks for it......No dark doctrine here.

Benjamin have you really looked at the teaching first hand? Or just reacted against it like so many do.