Calvinists: Best Argument?

"as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"

 

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

The question that got me and that I've used on occassion as well is, "Why are you a Christian and ________ isn't a Christian? The first answer of course is always something along the line of, "because I chose to be". Then I'll keep pressing..."Why did you choose to be?". To which I'll get a response.."because the gospel was attractive to me". To which I'll reply, why was it attractive to you and not to ______. Are you smarter than_____. And of course the answer will be "no". Were you more spiritual than_______? If they say "yes", then you ask, "Why are you more spiritual?" The ultimate final reasoning has to be "All because of God".

 

jcjordan, nice to meet you and welcome. Your reasoning is solid as a brick.

My question was always "why do some people NOT believe?" To which the reply was always "it's a mystery". Then I saw this in the Bible:

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:26-27)

 

I found your question sceanerio to be rather faulty
I became a Christian because I did not choose to rebel. No man chooses Christ. Then ofcourse you'd ask something else I wonder what that would be. You see freewill isn't about choosing Christ but choosing to rebel. You will most likely claim well if I could chose to rebel I would be choosing Christ by not rebeling. How ever that isn't true. You see God chose me when Salvation was sent to the Gentiles as a whole Act 28:28 God chose to die for the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
All sinners who are not saved have rebeled against God. You might say no man can resist God. I hate to disappoint you that just isn't even found in scripture. In fact the Jews rejected Christ.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
His own sheep wouldn't receive Him. Now that's real rejection when your own people won't have anything to do with you.
MB

 

Welcome to the BB

Plug in "child molester" or "rapist" in the place of Christian. Type in "woman / child" in place of "gospel", etc. This is the logical conclusion to your view...it's all because of God.

 

Webdog,

I don't think this plays-out the way you are arguing it will. Your position here presupposes that man is basically neutral and God causes them to go bad. So, your logical conclusion, I believe, is flawed because of your neutral presupposition.

Let's discuss further.

The Archangel

 

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The point that I always try to make is that it is impossible for man to save himself. It must always start with God and it must always end with God. I am not sold on the calvinist view of election, but rather through His foreknowlege. And through His foreknowledge He calls, predestinates and justifies.

The biggest fault that I have with the Arminian view is the belief that one can be saved and then not be saved. Being born again is being born of God. What God does, He does right and no man can undo the work that Christ does.

 

The phrase "it's all of God" doesn't leave much wiggle room. I don't believe man is neutral at all, but even with the IAOG viewpoint, everyone is the way God wants them to be. This puts the responsibility for man's condition on God's shoulders and not ours. I don't buy that.

 

Webdog,

You said that you didn't believe man is neutral, I assume, then, you think man is bad. (I'll be continuing on that assumption)

In a sense mankind's fall was of God and was not of God. I believe Adam and Eve had a true free will to choose. They chose poorly and condemned us to an enslavement to sin (the basically-bad thing).

In essence, it was Adam and Eve that condemned us to hell. Now, I will readily say that God knew it was going to happen way before He created them.

It would seem you are thinking about what is called the Supralapsarian position--the idea that God caused Adam and Eve to sin. I don't buy that. I'm more of a Infralapsarian which states God did His electing work after permitting the fall. (See a good page about it here)

I agree it is very difficult to see God not causing sin in the Supra position. In the Infra position, however, it was man who chose to sin (and yes, God allowed/ordained it), and it is God that provides the way out to some, not all.

I hope this clarifies a bit. Lets go deeper!

The Archangel

 

So, do you believe that when you were conceived and born, that you were not in rebellion toward God? Were you never an enemy of God's? You do know I have plenty of scripture to discount this, correct?

 

...there's just as much to discount Augustinian original sin/suilt, too.

 

This is the exact reason that I can never be a free willer....

 

What I know is you didn't present it if you do have scripture that discounts it.
While I agree we are undeserving as sinners we are not reprobate as Calvinist claim we are. If we were rejected as they claim then there would be no hope.
There isn't one scripture that supports inability not one It isn't an inability that keeps man from coming to Christ. What keeps man from coming to Christ is man loves Darkness more than the light which is why we are told not to hide our light.
Salvation has been sent to the Gerntiles and the Bible says they will hear it.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This Proves men can hear the gospel. It also proves that election is not particular but election is something we have to make sure.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Calvinist are right in that Salvation is all of God. It takes a God inspired preacher to preach the word to him and the Holy Spirit working to convict the man and convince him of the truth of God's word about Jesus Christ. Even after this it isn't the faith that man has that saves the man but the very faith of Jesus Christ.
Paul wrote;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our belief in Christ is our hope. It wasn't even thought of by the man but was created with in the man by the Holy Spirit through being convinced of the truth and submission was created by the conviction of the sins of the man. The Jews sought God and rejected Christ. Paul wrote.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Sadly most Jews would not listen which is why they rejected Christ.

MB

 

1. I found this interesting analogy while reading Numbers 22:31, "The Lord opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword draw" (NIV).

It was not until the Lord opened his inner eyes to behold the angel was Balaam able to see.

2. Now compare that with Acts 16:14, "As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying" (NLTse).

It was not until the Lord opned her heart was Lydia able to respond.

Just a thought!

 

Mans Inability

There are lots of verses that speaks to man inability to be saved. What about:

1 Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

How can the unsaved man make a chosing for Christ when Christ is follishness to him.

Romans 9:16, Romans 3:10-18, John 6:44.

 

So, please show me a verse, taken in proper context, that teaches that man is built morally neutral or good, on his own, apart from God's intervention. Also, if you are born morally neutral or good, then you are not eligible for the gospel. You don't need it.