righteousdude2 said:
This may present an interesting theological debate. I have always been a skeptic of those who are quick to place blame and point fingers at other brothers and sisters when they have prayed for something [i.e., healing, finances, employment, etc.] and the Lord never answered their prayer, at least like they, and others felt God should have answered the prayer.
I have several Baptist brothers and sisters who believe the person(s) they pray for has sin in their life, or lack "enough" faith when the need goes unanswered.
The interesting believe these folks have is that someone lacks "enough faith." :BangHead: So, what constitutes "enough" faith?
I'd love to hear from you folks as to the name-it-claim-it theology. Personally, I believe that God is sovereign, and His will is sovereign, and the answers to our prayers is solely dependent upon His sovereign will :godisgood: for us at that time and place in walk with Him.
So, WHAT SAY YOU?
Pastor Paul
I agree with you and Le Buick with regard to God answering in accordance with His will.
I always stump those of the Name-it-and-Claim-it crowd, who try to convince me of their view, and yes they give the same examples in this order for lack of healing (or whatever) - 1. Not enough faith, 2. Some sin in their life which hinders God from working.
I alway use to examples that make them rethink their view (and it has worked quite a bit, but they must be willing to listen). In the same order as above to refute:
1. Acts 3 talks about Peter and John going to the Temple and there was a certain man there who was born lame. He asked for money from them and did not ask for healing. Actaully according to the text it is quite possible either he didn't know who they were or didn't know they COULD heal. He was only asking for money.
Yet, with NO FAITH on his part (but yes on Peters), Peter declared him healed TOOK HIM BY HAND and lifted HIM UP. The man did not stand of his own accord but Peter helped him up to prove his own declaration. When we beseech God on others behalf it is about our faith in His will over them. So before we spout off at the mouth on the behalf of God it would behove us to seek God or be assured that you are walking in the kind of relationship Peter and the Apostles were that they already knew the will of the Father in this and did it. Peter was given the gift of healing but God did not desire Peter to heal every person. Notice he was passing by those at the gate seeking alms and only stopped when one asked of him. (there are other examples like the lame man in Acts but he is the most known)
....1-A. Secondly, the argument that Jesus said to 'certain' people things like 'thy faith has healed thee', or "be it as thou hast believed'. What about that? What about it! We are to seek all things from God in an attitude of faith but we are not to expect our every whim and wish to be fulfilled. It is to be fulfilled in accordance with the will of God. Paul is the example here who himself asked for an infirmity to be removed 3 times but God tells Paul (basically) No, My grace is better than your request for personal comfort. This part of scripture blows holes in the whole - God wants everyone to be healed. If Paul a man and Apostle of God was not permitted healing the God does NOT desire all men everywhere to be healed in the physical sense. Also we find Paul leaving behind members of his team who were sick in 2 Tim 4:20
....1-B. Thirdly, they state well they just didn't have enough faith. I refer back to Paul. I will also take them to the passage that faith the size of a grain of mustard seed can move mountains. They always say here - SEE!! if we just had that much faith we can do all sorts of miraculous things. Then I show them the passage again. I state - this isn't saying you DON"T have this much faith, but that this small, infant seed type of faith is all that is necessary to overcome. We do not need be fully mature in our faith to move mountains since the mountain mover is not our faith but our faith that God will move that mountian. Do we believe God will do what He said He will do. Then I talk about their salvation- That seed like faith that beginning, little knowing with limited understanding faith by which we cried out to God to have mercy and save us - moved the mountain of seperating sin in our lives. It healed the spiritually sick, Raised the spiritually dead, made walk the spiritually lame, made see the spiritually blind, opened the mouth of the spiritually mute. It has done all of this NOT because of the greatness of their faith, but that they believe in the greatness of God even with the little faith and it was done because it was Gods will and they believed it.
Which brings up #2 about sin being the hinderance:
2. Again I refer back to both the Acts 3 and Paul. This is basically the cop-out clause when something does happen when they (of presumedly great faith) pray and nothing happens. Remove the blame from them to the other person. It is much the same as cop-out number 1 by which again they place the blame for God not doing something on the other person to keep them above reproach and seemly still holier than thou. Sin does not hinder God, it hinders us.
....2-A. Then I bring up the fact that it is good for believers to pray for one another and we are supposed to. But if a 'sickness' continues they are to call for the ELDERS (not the whole congregation) or they could even initially call for the elders and THEY (the elders ALONE) are to pray for them.
....2-B. Then I go over the scritpures they always cite as promise verses and ask them to read them in context and see if it says what they think it says. (ex: ..by His stripes we are healed [physically]) and then I show them how (in the vast majority of the time) some of the verses they use are used incorrectly (like the calling for the elders and everyone in the church comes up and begins praying over them). Now I'm not saying there is a magic formula that must be followed in order for God to work but God did gives us an order to which He expects us to both understand and walk in. There are many other verse they misuse to do the whole name it and claim it, but unless they are willing to see and hear just stop where they don't want to hear any more. Typically I use this model on the those whom the name it and claim it has failed them (a HUGE group) and they feel dejected, lacking any real faith, sinful but not sure as to what that sin is, et...
Did you need any of that? I seriously doubt it, but there are others who read these that have no clue how to help their own friends and family. Thanks for the thread. :thumbs:
raying: