Can A "good" Muslim be a good American?

[webdog]

Would you mind providing the text for this from the Quran? Thanks.

I don't have a Quran, but maybe someone that has knowledge of it can supply the source.

In the meantime...
Rep.-elect Keith (Hakim-Mohammed) Ellison, D-Minn., has drawn fire for asking to take the constitutional oath on the Quran rather than the Bible at a swearing-in ceremony next month.
The Constitution specifies that members of Congress shall be bound by an oath to support the constitutional law of the land. In the oath, Ellison will be required to swear to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ... without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion."
Critics argue he has conflicting loyalties, while Ellison insists he's a patriot. But within days of being elected, Ellison held a workshop on politics for a group closely affiliated with a radical Islamic school that preaches no Muslim can pledge loyalty to the Constitution or make laws outside the laws of the Quran, which the school's leaders assert is the "supreme law" of the land, trumping all man-made laws including the U.S. Constitution.

 

[amity]

You are right, I should not have limited my discussion to ethnicity. But no, you can pretty well bet we are not going to put Muslims on the front lines against a Muslim nation. They'll serve in other theaters. It has always been that way.

 

[amity]

Have you got a source for that? I mean an objective source, not the kind I am growing used to seeing cited! He is a very radical member fo the Nation of Islam.

If he endorses that position secretly I would be surprised. If he merely held a workshop for them as you say I am not surprised at all. And if it comes right down to it, I do feel the exact same way about the Bible. It says swear no oaths.

Ha! I gleaned this from Wikipedia:

"Because Ellison stated an intent to use the Quran instead of a Bible at his photo-op reenactment of the swearing in ceremony (the official ceremony is done en masse without any books), Conservative columnist Dennis Prager wrote a column criticizing him.[84] This drew responses from organizations such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), The American Family Association, and The Anti-Defamation League.

Fifth-term Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA), responding to "scores and hundreds of emails"[85] from his constituents after the Prager articles, has also stated his view that Ellison's decision to use the Quran is a threat to "the values and beliefs traditional to the United States of America".[86] He also wrote, "...if American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran."

CNN reported that on the January 4, 2007 (the opening day of Congress), Ellison met Goode on the House floor to shake hands and Goode accepted an offer to talk over coffee.[87]

That same day during his oath reenactment Ellison used a two volume Quran published in London in 1764 that was once owned by Thomas Jefferson[88] and loaned to Ellison by "the rare book and special collections division at the Library of Congress".[89] According to Ellison, "It demonstrates that from the very beginning of our country, we had people who were visionary, who were religiously tolerant, who believed that knowledge and wisdom could be gleaned from any number of sources, including the Quran." [90] Historian Kevin J. Hayes in his book “How Thomas Jefferson Read the Qur’an” explains that Jefferson purchased the book in 1765 while studying for the bar exam to become a lawyer (when he began questioning British Common Law after the Stamp Act Crisis).[91]"​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_(politician)#Controversies

 

[DHK]

You are right, I should not have limited my discussion to ethnicity. But no, you can pretty well bet we are not going to put Muslims on the front lines against a Muslim nation. They'll serve in other theaters. It has always been that way.

You are day-dreaming. It has not always been that way. Catholics have been in the forces and have fought against Catholic nations. Protestants have been in the forces and have fought aganst Protestant nations. You are not thinking straight. Religion does not play a role in war. The defense of one's country, in spite of the political correctiness of the enemies religion, is the primary reason of our nation going to war.

 

[webdog]

Have you got a source for that? I mean an objective source, not the kind I am growing used to seeing cited! He is a very radical member fo the Nation of Islam.

If he endorses that position secretly I would be surprised. If he merely held a workshop for them as you say I am not surprised at all. And if it comes right down to it, I do feel the exact same way about the Bible. It says swear no oaths.

Ha! I gleaned this from Wikipedia:
Because Ellison stated an intent to use the Quran instead of a Bible at his photo-op reenactment of the swearing in ceremony (the official ceremony is done en masse without any books), Conservative columnist Dennis Prager wrote a column criticizing him.[84] This drew responses from organizations such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), The American Family Association, and The Anti-Defamation League.

Fifth-term Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA), responding to "scores and hundreds of emails"[85] from his constituents after the Prager articles, has also stated his view that Ellison's decision to use the Quran is a threat to "the values and beliefs traditional to the United States of America".[86] He also wrote, "...if American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran."

CNN reported that on the January 4, 2007 (the opening day of Congress), Ellison met Goode on the House floor to shake hands and Goode accepted an offer to talk over coffee.[87]

That same day during his oath reenactment Ellison used a two volume Quran published in London in 1764 that was once owned by Thomas Jefferson[88] and loaned to Ellison by "the rare book and special collections division at the Library of Congress".[89] According to Ellison, "It demonstrates that from the very beginning of our country, we had people who were visionary, who were religiously tolerant, who believed that knowledge and wisdom could be gleaned from any number of sources, including the Quran." [90] Historian Kevin J. Hayes in his book “How Thomas Jefferson Read the Qur’an” explains that Jefferson purchased the book in 1765 while studying for the bar exam to become a lawyer (when he began questioning British Common Law after the Stamp Act Crisis).[91]

The links were right above.

 

[amity]

Religion does not play a role in war. The defense of one's country, in spite of the political correctiness of the enemies religion, is the primary reason of our nation going to war.

Then why are you insisting "this is a valid question."?

And at any rate, this man is an elected representative. That is all that counts in this case.

 

[LadyEagle]

Would you mind providing the text for this from the Quran? Thanks.

[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
[2.244] And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[2.276] Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.
[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
[4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
[4.144] O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
[22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;


[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[8.18] This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25
Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

 

[DHK]

Then why are you insisting "this is a valid question."?

And at any rate, this man is an elected representative. That is all that counts in this case.

The question is valid because for most of us our religion is not a factor when it comes to defending our nation. My religion does not factor into my decision to defend my nation. My faith will not lead me to betray my nation. I don't know of any other's that will either.

But this is a valid question when it comes to Islam. Can a good Muslim be a good American. When war breaks out will he be faithful to his religion first and at the same time betray his nation? Or will he put his religion aside and be patriotic to his nation and fight alongside his fellow countrymen and be willing to die for his nation inspite of who the enemy may be? Which will he choose?

 

[webdog]

I think the source Ladyeagle provided straight from the Quran should put an end to this debate. A loyal, true muslim CANNOT be a loyal, true American! We are the enemy!

 

[amity]

Lady Eagle, you really should do some studying on how to do citations. It is the same old problem here again, which I have already tried to call to your attention. Looking up those disparate passages you have strung together into a sequence to make them seem like they mean something other than what they mean, will in fact show that they are actually written about the idolators in Mecca in Mohammad's own time. They are NOT written about Christians.

If I select certain sentences and phrases you said last week and string them together in a new order I can probably make it look as though you hold all sorts of beliefs that in reality you do not.

Lookie here, I could play the same game with the Bible, too:

And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people. Luke 22:2
After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. John 7:1
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:26-27
But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. John 7:49
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Galatians 3:10
Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people. Leviticus 7:21
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.Isaiah 66:3
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psalm 137:9
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. Isaiah 13:16
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Deuteronomy 13:9​

That is pretty coherent garbling and misrepresentation of the message of the Bible for 15 minutes' effort. If I spent all evening I could do even better.

 

[LadyEagle]

Yes, well, amity, I cut & pasted the first part of them from your own source you posted on the thread that was closed in the politics forum, in anticipation of your disclaiming them here. You have to get up pritty early to get one up on LE on the topic of the ROP (religion of peace)... lol.... :laugh:

 

[DHK]

Lady Eagle, you really should do some studying on how to do citations. Looking up those disparate passages you have strung together into a sequence to make them seem like they mean something other than what they mean will in fact show that they are actually written about the idolators in Mecca in Mohammad's own time. They are NOT written about Christians.

This statement you have made before. It shows that you have not studied the Koran and only want to defend Islam. Why? I don't know. Did you read the verses that were quoted? Apparently not.
Does this refer only to idolaters?

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

No persecution against Christians? Are you sure about that?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Lady Eagle, what is the context of the text you provided? Anyone can take any text out of context and make it mean what they want. We can do that with the Bible huh?
The Bible commands us to kill unbelievers and is just as hateful when taken out of context. We better kill all the Jews because they are of their father the devil and seek to do the deeds of their father. John 8

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't have a Quran, but maybe someone that has knowledge of it can supply the source.

In the meantime...
Rep.-elect Keith (Hakim-Mohammed) Ellison, D-Minn., has drawn fire for asking to take the constitutional oath on the Quran rather than the Bible at a swearing-in ceremony next month.
The Constitution specifies that members of Congress shall be bound by an oath to support the constitutional law of the land. In the oath, Ellison will be required to swear to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ... without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion."
Critics argue he has conflicting loyalties, while Ellison insists he's a patriot. But within days of being elected, Ellison held a workshop on politics for a group closely affiliated with a radical Islamic school that preaches no Muslim can pledge loyalty to the Constitution or make laws outside the laws of the Quran, which the school's leaders assert is the "supreme law" of the land, trumping all man-made laws including the U.S. Constitution.

You can download one for free on the internet. Maybe you should read it and see if what others are saying is true?

 

[amity]

Go back and read how I did the same with the Bible, taking quotes out of context and recombining them. One can make it appear to say anything one wishes using the same tactics. That is NOT how to do citations, LE.

 

[DHK]

Go back and read how I did the same with the Bible, taking quotes out of context and recombining them. One can make it appear to say anything one wishes using the same tactics. That is NOT how to do citations, LE.

Yes it is. It does not matter what the name of the book is, though it is easy enough to look it up. Unlike the Bible the Koran is divided into surah's that run consecutively from the beginning to the end no matter what the book is. Thus it is simply redundant to name the book. The surah will guide you to the right part of the book no matter what the # is. And the verse will tell you what verse it is. What LE did is the standard and recognized way of referencing a verse in the Koran.
You are simply nit-picking for no reason at all.

 

[amity]

arrrggghhh, READ! Read what I did to the Bible. No, you CANNOT take a bunch of verses out of content, recombine them to form a new, artificial context, and be using citations credibly.

 

[DHK]

Lady Eagle, what is the context of the text you provided? Anyone can take any text out of context and make it mean what they want. We can do that with the Bible huh?
The Bible commands us to kill unbelievers and is just as hateful when taken out of context. We better kill all the Jews because they are of their father the devil and seek to do the deeds of their father. John 8

For most of the Koran there is not much context. Mohammed wrote in rambling "poetic" prose, so to speak of. They might be compared to the book of Proverbs. There are some sections which do have obvious contexts such as those which deal with the treatment of women. Other subjects are addressed as well. These contexts are easily discerned. Given the nature of the ramblings of Mohammed I doubt if there is anything quite out "of context" that LE quoted.

 

[DHK]

arrrggghhh, READ! Read what I did to the Bible. No, you CANNOT take a bunch of verses out of content, recombine them to form a new, artificial context, and be using citations credibly.

If you think they have such a specific context in that they don't mean what they say, then demonstrate how Mohammed didn't mean what he said by using context.

 

[amity]

DHK, ANYTIME one chooses to quote ONE VERSE of the Bible OR the Koran it is out of context. It is just one verse, so how can it NOT be out of context? If then one follows it with another verse from a remote part of the book, followed by another verse from yet some entirely different chapter, and tries to string them together into one meaningful passage by saying that they are all referring to the same thing, then that is not a proper citation. All one REALLY has is a bunch of verses taken out of context.

None of the verses in LE's quotation are more than a single isolated verse. None of them are presented in any context whatsover. Putting them all together that way makes it appear as though there is context, when there is most definitely not. They are nothing but a random sequence of verses, that is all.